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Subject: America's Worst Enemy in History
mongyu    1/2/2008 8:16:10 AM
The title says it all: Who do you think has been the greatest enemy ever to threaten America? My vote goes to the British hands down. No other country ever came as close as the British to physically ending the United States in our history. The Germans and the Japanese were formidable in their own right, but neither [or even both] could reasonably invade the United States. The Soviet Union had the theoretical potential to destroy the United States, but I think everyone agrees that this was not a practical capability in the way the British Empire's ability to take Washington DC was. The Soviets were a dangerous enemy ideologically in the way it could convert adherents in America, but they never out-did the British who successfully supported a rebellion in the United States by funding, arming, and giving moral support to the Confederacy. So what country would you choose?
 
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Beazz       1/3/2008 5:48:52 PM
 
Radical Islam is a serious threat to Europe as we know it, but not to the US. Both areas have relatively low birth rates and nearby areas of relative poverty and high birth rates, creating a tendency for immigration from the area of high population and low wealth to the area of low population and high wealth. For Europe the source of these immigrants is Muslim, for the US the source is Catholic.
 
Not sure where you get those numbers but the census bureau thinks most come from Muslim countrys no and that the population is growinf pretty rapidly. At any rate, there seems to be well over a mil arabs and I think I saw between 3 and 5 mil muslims. More then a sufficient amount to make troubl IMHO.
 
Census: U.S. Arab Population Is Surging
NewsMax.com Wires
Thursday, Dec. 4, 2003
WASHINGTON -- The Arab population in the United States has nearly doubled in the past two decades, according to the Census Bureau's first report on the group.

Experts cited liberalized U.S. immigration laws and unrest in the Middle East that led many people to come to America.

The bureau counted nearly 1.2 million Arabs in the United States in 2000, compared with 860,000 in 1990 and 610,000 in 1980. About 60 percent trace their ancestry to three countries: Lebanon, Syria and Egypt.

While earlier Arab immigrants came from countries with large Christian populations, newer arrivals come from heavily Muslim countries such as Iraq and Yemen.

 
There is no threat that Radical Islam poses that could become an existential threat to the US faster than the US can deal with it. The only scenario that comes close requires multiple nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles on multiple cargo ships, making a coordinated EMP attack. That would require an enormous degree of coordination and the involvement of massive numbers of human assets. Pulling that off without it being noticed is quite a stretch. 9/11 slipped by due to disorganization and lack of preparation almost certainly aided by the assumption that something of that magnitude just couldn't happen. We won't make the same mistakes any time soon. Even if it could be put into effect, the US ABM system is designed with countering such a threat as part of its mission.
 
I can think of 2 other scenarios. The first is the use of general aviation a/c in this country. As someone who spent in excess of 25 years working at airports I can tell you there is ZERO security at the GA ramps. And that is just at the several hundred airports with actual control towers. There are hundreds if not a few thousand other uncontrolled airports that GA a/c fly in and out of all the time with no one at all there but other GA pilots flying around.
 
I have a friend that works with homeland security and a couple years ago I asked him if he was keepin us all safe from the terrorists just joking around and he laughed and says yea buddy. Then I asked him why is it that they have not just loaded up hundreds, if not thousands of GA a/c with military explosives and picked a day and time and then airplanes start blowing up everywhere. His answer was.. we don't know and we also are scared sh**less that is gonna happen..!! So it's not some crazy idea. It is very real.
 
Even after 9-11 GA were kept grounded for several months for fear of exactly this as well as fear they could load them up with chemicals and spray large populations. Even when they were let back in the air it was with numerous restrictions and a feeling they had to be let back as they have such a large lobby group here in America. But there was always a feeling of uneasyness about it. Even today if they dont answer up on a radio call in a timely fashion or their transponder stops workin all the sudden or they even change their destination airport in flight it has to be reported to someone higher up so they can decide if it is suspicious activity or not. And for dang near a year after 9-11 if ANY of those things happend there would be a milirary fighter on them before they could spit and they could be forced to land and explain themselves. So someone thinks there is a danger there. And an you imagine them flying explosive laden planes like this ito out nuke power plants and places like ohhh..Kings Bay Nuclear Sub Base? Ya know the restricted airspace around Kings Bay is 2.5 miles laterally and surface up to and including 2999 fee
 
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Jeff_F_F       1/3/2008 6:46:33 PM
3-5 million might seem like a lot, but that is 1-2% of the US population. 1 million Arabs is 0.3%
 
We could have some trouble, but an existential threat is a completely separate matter. My understanding of the demographics is that a lot of European nations will likely become majority muslim. That's a can of worms of a completely different magnitude.
 
Also consider that many European nations have laws that are much more antagonistic to Muslims than America's. One consequence of the 1st Amendment and our history of racial reconciliation is that it has broken down a lot of barriers and that makes it a lot easier for everyone to get along and takes a lot of the power out of militant Islamic rhetoric. That kind of crap plays a lot better in front of an audience that is marginalized and doesn't have anything better to look forward to in life than a "glorious" death.
 
I have no doubt that there will eventually be another terrorist attack in the US by militant Muslim extremists. On the other hand there's plenty of ordinary run of the mill homicidal/suicidal crazys out there, not to mention the terrorist attacks by militant animal rights extremists and ecoterrorists in the past, and even militant Christian extremist groups. In my mind what it comes down to is that when you have 1/3 of a billion people, there's a pretty good chance that one or more of them are sufficiently  f@#%ed up in the head to do something destructive.
 
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Beazz       1/3/2008 8:14:59 PM
 
3-5 million might seem like a lot, but that is 1-2% of the US population. 1 million Arabs is 0.3%
 
Jeff, 3-5 mill is a lot when ya consider it only took 16 to carry out 9-11.
 
We could have some trouble, but an existential threat is a completely separate matter. My understanding of the demographics is that a lot of European nations will likely become majority muslim. That's a can of worms of a completely different magnitude.
 
But they don't have to wipe us from existence Jeff. Cripple us in such a manner we are no lomger relevant and they have succeeded. That was, after all the goal of 9-11. To cripple the US economy. And it had a serious effect on the airlines. It almost bankrupt them all and since then several of the major carriers have in fact filed for chapter 11. Imagine the effect of hundreds of planes as bombs or thousands of gas stations blowing up. Most groecery stores only have a few days worth of food stocked up. They have to take deliveries every single day. No gas means food is gone in a week and on and on. Then total chaos and the America we all know and love is not here anymore. We may not all be dead, but compared to the way we all live here, we may as well be.
 
As for Europe, my understanding is many of them have indeed passed laws stopping this onslaught of Muslin immigration for the very reasons you state. They have finally started to see the writing on the wall and what these people are up to.
 
Also consider that many European nations have laws that are much more antagonistic to Muslims than America's. One consequence of the 1st Amendment and our history of racial reconciliation is that it has broken down a lot of barriers and that makes it a lot easier for everyone to get along and takes a lot of the power out of militant Islamic rhetoric. That kind of crap plays a lot better in front of an audience that is marginalized and doesn't have anything better to look forward to in life than a "glorious" death.
 
Yea thats true to an extent. But Europe has been forced into passing these laws as the Muslim population has definaltely not assemalated into their society as in America and as you also elude to, their population has gotten to a point already of being dangerous if not brought under control. Just ask France how they feel about em now.
 
I have no doubt that there will eventually be another terrorist attack in the US by militant Muslim extremists. On the other hand there's plenty of ordinary run of the mill homicidal/suicidal crazys out there, not to mention the terrorist attacks by militant animal rights extremists and ecoterrorists in the past, and even militant Christian extremist groups. In my mind what it comes down to is that when you have 1/3 of a billion people, there's a pretty good chance that one or more of them are sufficiently  f@#%ed up in the head to do something destructive.
 
Hmm, Jeff I fail to see the comparison of those groups as to Islamic fanatcism. I realize by definition when the tree hugger puts a spike in the tree to injure the logger that is technically an act of terror. But thier goal is not to destroy a nation or kill anyone who doesnt love tresss ;-) Matter fact they dont aim to kill anyone, although I realize what they do is completely wrong. . They just want to make the loggers stop cutting down the trees. I see them no danger to any society whatsoever. Catch em and put em in jail is all. The other 2 groups are about the same. Well, the white supremeist are  nut jobs for sure. I guess kind of like the Islamic ones. But again, they have no desire to bring down America, even though they are completely sickos. And for the life of me, I can't remember the last time I heard about one of those groups killing anyone. On the other hand, every single day quiet a few people somewhere in the world dies of an act of Islamic terrorism.
 
I also see them gaining an advantage here but doing things such as those Emams on the air carrier flight did. It has been stated by some that the entire thing was a setup on their part. I saw interviews by several of the passengers that reportd them and here they are here in America, but had to cover their faces for fear of being sued. It seems completely to some within reason that this was the goal of what they did. They wish to instill fear in Americans for reporting suspicious activity now for fear of being sued and loseing everything. And
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Beazz reply, General Aviation   1/3/2008 10:57:17 PM
 
It is harder to pull off a major attack of multiple AC attacking multiple targets than you might think. First, pilots are fairly rare commodities and for the most part they think to much of themselves to do something like what you suggest (just ask one). To train a couple of dozen suicide monkeys you need a pretty specific set of assets and that will show up on someone's intellegence radar. Remember, Atta and company were discovered prior to 9-11 at least twice, once by the US Army's intellegence outfit that was "data mining" and they were turned in by their flight schools because they came off as real twitchy to the instructors (you can not hide anything from flight instructors because you spend allot of time in very close proximity with them). Clinton Admin counter terror rules prevented anyone from acting on those leads. That has changed.
 
In order to accomplish what you suggest it would require a nation state level of logistical support and a very high foot print in country. It has a very low probability of success in today's environment. A single act of a other wise normal individual crashing a bus-jet into a target is a danger because it would require a much lower level of outside assistance. But it would not have quite the effect that a mass of attackers would IMV.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
 
 
 
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Beazz    Rocky   1/4/2008 12:33:25 AM
It is harder to pull off a major attack of multiple AC attacking multiple targets than you might think. First, pilots are fairly rare commodities and for the most part they think to much of themselves to do something like what you suggest (just ask one). To train a couple of dozen suicide monkeys you need a pretty specific set of assets and that will show up on someone's intellegence radar. Remember, Atta and company were discovered prior to 9-11 at least twice, once by the US Army's intellegence outfit that was "data mining" and they were turned in by their flight schools because they came off as real twitchy to the instructors (you can not hide anything from flight instructors because you spend allot of time in very close proximity with them). Clinton Admin counter terror rules prevented anyone from acting on those leads. That has changed.
 
In order to accomplish what you suggest it would require a nation state level of logistical support and a very high foot print in country. It has a very low probability of success in today's environment. A single act of a other wise normal individual crashing a bus-jet into a target is a danger because it would require a much lower level of outside assistance. But it would not have quite the effect that a mass of attackers would IMV.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
Rocky,
I realize it may not be that simple, but certainly within the realm and someone still thinks its a concern or we would not be required to report every lilttle deviation from what used to be rather normal behavior from GA pilots. As for pilots, You probably know that Florida is one of the states that is pilot trainer heaven. When I retired we were working more trainers then anytime in my 25 year career and not ONE could speak a lick of english. So foreighners are still alive and well in the trainer scenario here. They are not the least bit a rare commodity down here in other words. And there are more flight schools down here then you can shake a stick at. So a few here at one school, a few there at another and on and on and they are 99% non english anyhow, would not stand out all that much or seems to me they would already be shut the schools down. And they may have gotten better at the nervous thing just possibly.
 
And personally I think several of them act dang suspicious to me. Twice in my last year I had these non english speaking idiots come up from Datona Beach ( where most of the 9-11 thugs trained ) and tell me they were going to Navy Mayport to land. Each time there was a carrier around. I asked if they had prior permission and they said no and I told em they were not going there but I would call anyhow. So I called Mayport tower and aksed about em and they said hell would freeze over before these guys got in there and they had never heard of them. That seemed fishy to me as all theses GA pilots know in order to land at a Navy base prior permissin is required unless they are based out of there. When I told em after talking to mayport tower again they were not going there and where did they want to go, they then said we'll go back to Daytona and land. Hmmmm Pay all that money to rent the plane and then just turn around? Right. I fully expected him to tell me he'd go to one of the other airports in the area to shoot some approach like they do all day long every friggin day.
 
Then all the sudden the last couple years they started flying into the uncontrolled airport in the little town I live in. All it has is a short grass strip, but what makes it so fishy looking to me is that Jacksonville Center, (that's one of the 21 Enroute air traffic control facilitys in the country that has the overlying airspace in 4 or 5 states), is located less then 1/2 mile right off the end of the rwy at the airport. These guys cant speak a lick of english, have never flown into this airport as it has no instrument appraoches to practice and all the sudden they have the need to be flying up there all the time. I am sure you know what a tempting target a place like that would be.
 
Hopefully you are correct and not just overly optimistic. But like I said, my friend in Homeland Security says they worry about it all the time and he seemed serious when he said it. And palces like Kings Bay and the Nuke power plants we have down here still just gives me the willies knowing how outright easy they would be to get hit like that if someone had a mind to do it. And btw, we are still required to NOT allow any a/c to loiter around these places even at a legal altitude and report
 
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paul1970       1/4/2008 5:51:18 AM















































Now now, we both know it was the French that really won that war ;)

B.L.

















Ugh...
















Outdone by the French ?  Surely you jest! 
















 













it isn't a fact americans bring up when they teach history but without french aid the revolutionary war was a foregone conclusion pretty much ending with a bunch of founding fathers getting hung for treason. 








One simple answer. Cowflop.

I suggest you do an economic analysis of the Earth at the time. The proto-US was at 1/4 of France's economic output and CLIMBING. If not 1783 then by 1820. Britain in NA was FINISHED.

Herald










you mean the USA rather than North America?








and what do you mean by "FINISHED"?







I mean finished in North America. Why the Great White North put up with it, is your internal political business, but if you really wanted to kick Britain out, they were out, through, period.

Herald




 



Canada was part of the British Empire back.



So what? 



the US had just failed it attempting to take it by force so I don't see why you say the British were finished?

Did you actually bother to read the campaign histories? T'was American bungling and logistics incompetence that saved the British. They were on the ropes  and escaped by the skin of their teeth.



the British Empire was far bigger than the US and still growing itself and could have focused on the America's rather than elsewhere and have beaten the still young US to the control of the majority of the west coast.

Napoleon and the Russians were in the way. When you make stupid statements  like this you make it too easy for me to swat you around.




it is only because Britain and the US were friendly for the majority of the time (W1812 the obvious exception) that the US was able to expand westward with so little opposition (ie natives and Mexicans rather than Spanish/French or British).


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Herald12345    I suggest you study Andrew Jackson   1/4/2008 6:21:27 AM
























































Now now, we both know it was the French that really won that war ;)

B.L.



















Ugh...


















Outdone by the French ?  Surely you jest! 


















 















it isn't a fact americans bring up when they teach history but without french aid the revolutionary war was a foregone conclusion pretty much ending with a bunch of founding fathers getting hung for treason. 









One simple answer. Cowflop.

I suggest you do an economic analysis of the Earth at the time. The proto-US was at 1/4 of France's economic output and CLIMBING. If not 1783 then by 1820. Britain in NA was FINISHED.

Herald












you mean the USA rather than North America?










and what do you mean by "FINISHED"?









I mean finished in North America. Why the Great White North put up with it, is your internal political business, but if you really wanted to kick Britain out, they were out, through, period.

Herald






 





Canada was part of the British Empire back.





So what? 





the US had just failed it attempting to take it by force so I don't see why you say the British were finished?

Did you actually bother to read the campaign histories? T'was American bungling and logistics incompetence that saved the British. They were on the ropes  and escaped by the skin of their teeth.





the British Empire was far bigger than the US and still growing itself and could have focused on the America's rather than elsewhere and have beaten the still young US to the control of the majority of the west coast.

Napoleon and the Russians were in the way. When you make stupid statements  like this you make it too easy for me to swat you around.






it is only because Britain and the US were friendly for the majority of the time (W1812 the obvious exception) that the US was able to expand westward with so little opposition (ie natives and Mexicans rather than Spanish/French or British).



Who taught you history? The US and Britain remained economic and political enemies and competitors down to the Spanish American War. It wasn't until the onset of WW I, that relations thawed enough that both nations could co-operate together as co-belligerents. Even then it was America's long term goal to DESTROY the British  Empire.


 





the British never opposed the expansion west from the original 13 colonies, which they could well have done if interested in doing so.

How so? Where was the logistics base to be, after the US got New Orleans? Never learned geography properly either, did you?





it didn't dispute the Lousiana purchase (which most might say wasn't Napoleon's to sell in the first place) or back Spain in wanting it back.



How can you dispute what you can't r
 
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Ehran       1/4/2008 11:48:07 AM

"From Holland and Spain initially actually. Who taught you history? Read Ben Franklin's papers. Before Saratoga, the French gave bluster, Lafayette, and provided some credit, but it was the Spanish who came across with smuggled material before then, and the Dutch who arranged the initial banking. The French were in a wait and see mode.


Herald"

 

As a side note to Herald' statements, some info regarding Spain's role in the American Revolution can be found at  ;>
 

Tercio


i hadn't known the spanish were such active participants.
 
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Ehran       1/4/2008 11:52:12 AM

the american colonies were doing quite well and per capita were actually richer than the british themselves.  i would suggest this wasn't going to be all that helpful to the revolutionaries though because most of that wealth was under british control especially during the early part of the war.  look to where the stands of muskets came from along with much of the powder and shot that equipped the continental army.  where did the cannon come from by and large?  the gold to pay the continental army?



From Holland and Spain initially actually. Who taught you history? Read Ben Franklin's papers. Before Saratoga, the French gave bluster, Lafayette, and provided some credit, but it was the Spanish who came across with smuggled material before then, and the Dutch who arranged the initial banking. The French were in a wait and see mode.


Herald

according to the link tercio posted the french king committed a million livres 6 weeks after the declaration of independance.  that's rather heavy duty for bluster don't you think? 
 
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Ehran       1/4/2008 12:09:33 PM
your "interesting" link doesn't list britain at all which makes it's value pretty dubious.  it's even less helpful in evaluating national power when you consider it's listing per capita income which isn't all that useful if you don't know the population sizes involved.  it's a bit like deciding that lichtenstein's high per capita income makes them more powerful than say turkey when any "real" comparison shows the true state of affairs rather quickly.
 
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