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Subject: America's Worst Enemy in History
mongyu    1/2/2008 8:16:10 AM
The title says it all: Who do you think has been the greatest enemy ever to threaten America? My vote goes to the British hands down. No other country ever came as close as the British to physically ending the United States in our history. The Germans and the Japanese were formidable in their own right, but neither [or even both] could reasonably invade the United States. The Soviet Union had the theoretical potential to destroy the United States, but I think everyone agrees that this was not a practical capability in the way the British Empire's ability to take Washington DC was. The Soviets were a dangerous enemy ideologically in the way it could convert adherents in America, but they never out-did the British who successfully supported a rebellion in the United States by funding, arming, and giving moral support to the Confederacy. So what country would you choose?
 
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Ehran       1/2/2008 2:43:04 PM

I don't know...from what i was taught, it was emphasized that the British did choose a side.  Maybe not "officially", but sending weapons, ships like the Florida, Alabama, etc., and loaning money to a rebellion sounds like choosing a side (I've never heard of them sending weapons and loaning money to the North).    And besides: people buy bonds because they expect an investment return.  And the only way the British Empire could get its money back was IF the Confederacy WON the Civil War ie. the Confederacy achieves independence and SURVIVES to pay back the bank notes.  If the Union won, the Confederacy [obviously] would no longer exist, thus voiding the money Britain invested.  So it's clear that the British intended the Confederacy to win.  Does that make sense?
those bonds were issued by the confederate gov't and purchased by british and other citizens.  it doesn't seem the british gov't held any amount of the bonds.
 
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Ehran       1/2/2008 2:46:10 PM




it isn't a fact americans bring up when they teach history but without french aid the revolutionary war was a foregone conclusion pretty much ending with a bunch of founding fathers getting hung for treason. 





I would argue more important was simply France "being France", and playing a thorn in the side of England at the time, preventing us from sending much to fight in colonial conflicts.  The "thin red line" couldn't be everywhere at once.


the motivation of the french is not particularly important it's the recognition of the french gold, guns, soldiers and ships and their role in securing the american victory.  it's quite eyeopening to look at the costs the french incurred and yet american history hardly mentions them.
 
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JIMF       1/2/2008 2:46:18 PM
As I understand it the predominant feeling in upper class England after the success of the American Revolution, with crucial French support, was that American nationhood would fail and we would beg to be taken back. The first American ambassador to Britain, future President John Adams, was regularly treated to those sentiments. 
 
By the time of the War of 1812 the American experiment was indeed working, and the population was around 7.5 million.  Britain could blockade the coast, burn the capitol, and if they had wanted sent much larger armies to crush American forces in the field.  However, I'm not sure at this point that they could have extinguished American sovereignty, the costs would have been prohibitive, and I don't think they really wanted to.
 
Many upper class Brits were sympathetic to the Confederacy sensing a kinship with the landed gentry of the South, and courtly latter day Knights such as R.E. Lee.  Also, strategically inclined British politicians would prefer to deal with two relatively weaker nations, than one powerful one.  However, Britain's working class, including the textile workers dependent on Southern cotton, were vehemently opposed to slavery.   Outside of the Alabama and the Laird Rams I don't think Britain supplied a significant amount of weaponry to the South.  Kudos to Abraham Lincoln and Prince Albert for keeping the Trent Affair from turning into a military conflict. 
 
 
 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Thats not true Ehran   1/2/2008 4:58:32 PM
     ......and yet american history hardly mentions them.<Ehran
 
They teach it just fine Ehran. It's in the history books and has been since it happened.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky

 
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usajoe       1/2/2008 5:10:06 PM
The French of yesterday, today and tomorrow
 
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00_Chem_AJB    Breaking the current trend.   1/2/2008 5:28:40 PM
I'd have to go with the Soviet Union, especially while under Brezhnev, it can be debatable whether they were the worst but certainly the most dangerous.
 
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Herald12345       1/2/2008 7:16:36 PM





Now now, we both know it was the French that really won that war ;)

B.L.




Ugh...



Outdone by the French ?  Surely you jest! 



 



it isn't a fact americans bring up when they teach history but without french aid the revolutionary war was a foregone conclusion pretty much ending with a bunch of founding fathers getting hung for treason. 


One simple answer. Cowflop.

I suggest you do an economic analysis of the Earth at the time. The proto-US was at 1/4 of France's economic output and CLIMBING. If not 1783 then by 1820. Britain in NA was FINISHED.

Herald

 
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Beazz    Radical Islam   1/2/2008 7:31:07 PM
The title says it all:

Who do you think has been the greatest enemy ever to threaten America?
 
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mongyu       1/2/2008 9:05:11 PM
I guess I get to play devil's advocate; I made my vote so I'll argue with it.  ;)  I think I'm getting better with the internet research stuff, BTW.
the civil war really put the british in a bad place.  the slavery issue made the south repugnant to them on moral grounds but the economic importance of the cotton from the south to the british industry was considerable.  economics vs morals is normally not much of a contest but the british stuck to their guns and started planting cotton in various places around the empire. 

don't make too much of british companies doing business with the confederates as it was a very long ways from the british gov't actually supporting them.


True enough; the British public had a history of being anti-slavery especially since 1793 when they abolished it, although I'm reading that both American sides (North and South)thought it had more to do with the Military fortunes of the War (like the battle of Antetietem) and the fate of Canada if it turned out the South lost with open British support (in which case the US Military would be turned north).
And you're right; the purchase of Confederacy's War Debts for supplies wasn't made by the British government but by individuals.  However, I should add the caveat that those individuals included not just ordinary British citizens, but the wealthy aristocracy and landowners, alot of members of Parliament, Ministers of Cabinet and the British Prime Minister (including a future Prime Minister).  Some of the most prominent members are listed in the link's table.  So while the fact that the "British Government" didn't finance the Confederacy is technically correct... well ;) ... it could be argued that that's a questionable technicality.
 
stanford.edu/group/sshi/Conferences/2002-2003/Debt2003/weidenmier.pdf
 
Still it's something that I hadn't really known before; I thought the British openly made finances and that Lincoln ate it.  As it was, there seems to be alot of lawfare especially in the international arena during the Civil War (I'm not sure if it's gotten worse).
 
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mongyu       1/2/2008 9:27:51 PM
I guess I get to play devil's advocate; I made my vote so I'll argue with it.  ;)  I think I'm getting better with the internet research stuff, BTW.
the civil war really put the british in a bad place.  the slavery issue made the south repugnant to them on moral grounds but the economic importance of the cotton from the south to the british industry was considerable.  economics vs morals is normally not much of a contest but the british stuck to their guns and started planting cotton in various places around the empire. 

don't make too much of british companies doing business with the confederates as it was a very long ways from the british gov't actually supporting them.


True enough; the British public had a history of being anti-slavery especially since 1793 when they abolished it, although I'm reading that both American sides (North and South)thought it had more to do with the Military fortunes of the War (like the battle of Antetietem) and the fate of Canada if it turned out the South lost with open British support (in which case the US Military would be turned north).
And you're right; the purchase of Confederacy's War Debts for supplies wasn't made by the British government but by individuals.  However, I should add the caveat that those individuals included not just ordinary British citizens, but the wealthy aristocracy and landowners, alot of members of Parliament, Ministers of Cabinet and the British Prime Minister (including a future Prime Minister).  Some of the most prominent members are listed in the link's table.  So while the fact that the "British Government" didn't finance the Confederacy is technically correct... well ;) ... it could be argued that that's a questionable technicality.
 
stanford.edu/group/sshi/Conferences/2002-2003/Debt2003/weidenmier.pdf
 
Still it's something that I hadn't really known before; I thought the British openly made finances and that Lincoln ate it.  As it was, there seems to be alot of lawfare especially in the international arena during the Civil War (I'm not sure if it's gotten worse).
 
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