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Subject: Halsey Acted Stupidly
jastayme3    10/30/2007 2:43:41 AM
"Your conclusions were all wrong, Ryan. Halsey acted stupidly."-Hunt for Red October Well Ramius was not quite correct. Halsey was quite adept at the sort of "naval blitzkriegs" that marked the last stage of the Pacific War. But on the most famous occasion he did act stupidly. At Leyte Gulf. This is not just 20/20 hindsight. Arleigh Burke guessed at the time that Ozawa was bait. However Halsey's mistake was not in attacking Ozawa. Even knowing that Ozawa was bait he should have done so. However the battleships should have been left behind to cover the invasion force. Halsey had more then enough to handle both goals but failed to practice proper economy of force. The reason Halsey was right to attack Ozawa was that even if the Japanese succeeded, if the carriers were gone they had only gained a respite. But if the carriers remained the Japanese might have time to recover their air power enough to hold their own. If the Philipines fell to the Americans then the IJN effectively did not exist. Therefore it was at least equally important to guard the invasion force. Something like this: If invasion checked but carriers gone, Japan obtains useless lull If carriers available but invasion successful IJN is finished. A navy is just as dead from lack of fuel and with more loss of face. If carriers survive and invasion checked then comes lull, with small possibility of Japan temporarily regaining initiative. And if carriers destroyed and invasion successful, then the rest of the war is large-scale "mopping up"(an odd phrase for Okinawa but in the staffie sense it is pretty much true-albeit it is one big "mop-up". This is indeed pretty close to what happend. But the frightful "near-run thing" could have been made assured with proper force budgeting. And finally when the infamous, "the world wonders" message arrived Halsey turned back, out of pique apparently. It was to late to effect the battle. So he would be better off getting a good pursuit in. And indeed if he had, history might have been less resentful.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    I guess he wasn't in command when the third one hit. Two is enough to demonstrate a problem.   10/30/2007 4:01:54 PM

ht***tp://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq102-6.htm



 
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Herald1234    Please don't credit halsey with what Turner and Vandegrift suggested.   10/30/2007 6:02:14 PM
Island hopping was not Halsey's idea. it was actually wargamed, as part of Orange, as early as 1938 in NWC staff problems.
 
When Spruance ran the exercises.........
 
Herald
 
 
 
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kensohaski       10/30/2007 9:42:27 PM
It seems as though I have read the same things about Adm. Halsey.  I have a tendency to agree with Herald on this.
 
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wjr1       10/31/2007 12:10:33 AM
Herald,

I won't take a position on this but I will say that my dad was a torpedo pilot on the Hornet and then Franklin and his squadron folks (the one that I met, at least) universally liked Mitchner but were more cool toward Halsey.

Some of this, I believe, stems from the fact that Mitchner turned on the carriers lights at the end of the "Turkey Shoot". This allowed many, many guys to live through the battle.

Best,
wjr

 
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gf0012-aust       10/31/2007 12:22:59 AM


Some of this, I believe, stems from the fact that Mitchner turned on the carriers lights at the end of the "Turkey Shoot". This allowed many, many guys to live through the battle.


Mitscher made everyone in the TF turn on their lights to guide everyone home.  They would have lost substantially more people if he hadn't.
He also sent out the radar equiped night fighters to go out and bring home those who were lost and in the dark (they were all flying blind and as panic set in some pilots "lost it" and started to crash their planes.
 
An excellent book worth getting is Tillmans "Clash of the Carriers", it provides some substantial detail about the Marianas TS

 
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earlm    PLaying Devil's Advocate   10/31/2007 11:50:04 PM
Let me first say I totally agree with Herald.  One the warships1 board this one is often brought up and the consensus there is that Halsey was right.  Supposedly Nimitz was angry with Spruance for not finishing the Japanese at the Philippine Sea and Halsey's orders specifically said to destroy the Japanese fleet if the opportunity arose.  I like Spruance's tactics much better, he had probably the finest naval mind ever, I would put him above Nelson although you really can't compare the two eras.  Spruance knew he had an invincible shield and he let the Japanese break themselves on it.  Halsey could have waited for Ozawa to launch and show he was committed.  If no launch ever came, what would that say?  It seems to me a lot of amateur fanboys like Halsey for his aggressiveness but if you have a deeper understanding of naval tactics you know Spruance was the genius.  For what it's worth my great uncle was killed on the Indianapolis and my grandmother would always talk about how proud he was to serve on Spruance's flagship and how it was considered an honor to have such a great admiral on board.
 
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wjr1       11/1/2007 12:14:52 AM
Your are right, gf0012-aust. My uncle was one of those night fighters.

Best,
wjr
 
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gf0012-aust       11/1/2007 12:46:35 AM

Your are right,
gf0012-aust. My uncle was one of those night fighters.

Best,
wjr


 
men like your uncle are worth their weight in gold..... silent heroes.
 
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Herald1234       11/1/2007 1:47:21 AM

Let me first say I totally agree with Herald.  One the warships1 board this one is often brought up and the consensus there is that Halsey was right.  Supposedly Nimitz was angry with Spruance for not finishing the Japanese at the Philippine Sea and Halsey's orders specifically said to destroy the Japanese fleet if the opportunity arose.  I like Spruance's tactics much better, he had probably the finest naval mind ever, I would put him above Nelson although you really can't compare the two eras.  Spruance knew he had an invincible shield and he let the Japanese break themselves on it.  Halsey could have waited for Ozawa to launch and show he was committed.  If no launch ever came, what would that say?  It seems to me a lot of amateur fanboys like Halsey for his aggressiveness but if you have a deeper understanding of naval tactics you know Spruance was the genius.  For what it's worth my great uncle was killed on the Indianapolis and my grandmother would always talk about how proud he was to serve on Spruance's flagship and how it was considered an honor to have such a great admiral on board.


Nimitz was disappointed that Spruance didn't bag Ozawa, but he was never angry with Raymond. He understood fuill well the actual difficulties that Spruance faced trying to protect three separate landings; as well as fight off Japanese land based air, dodge Japanese submarines, and fight Ozawa. On the other hand, except for the blow up with MacArthur over the Formosa/Philippines question, Nimitz never lost his temper, like he did over the Leyte fiasco. He wanted to sack Halsey immediately after the battle; but he was restrained by cooler heads who pointed out  the severe command dislocations and public morale problems it would cause to dismiss Halsey, the hero of Guadalcanal. Spruance was one of those cooler heads who calmed Nimitz down.

Spruance always put the nation, the mission and the Navy first.

"A man's judgment is best when he can forget himself and any reputation he may have acquired and can concentrate wholly on making the right decisions.

Raymond Ames Spruance     

"I never trust a fighting man who doesnt smoke or drink"
 
The Bull
 
Yep, Halsey was full of Bull.
 
Herald



 
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Leech       6/29/2009 4:10:03 PM


Kimmel was court martialed for far less than Halsey ever did. I would have Bynged Halsey.
 

Kimmel was court martialed instead of his superiors, who just left Pearl Harbour open to Japanese so that they can enter the war and help Brits. US Intelligence knew that Japanese are planning to attack Pearl Harbor and they sent aircraft carriers out of the base so main force of the fleet (carriers, not 8 aging battleshits as majority thought back then) would not be caught in base.
 
 
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