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Subject: Carl Gustav Rules In America
SYSOP    9/10/2014 5:33:04 AM
 
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WarNerd       9/14/2014 1:41:17 PM
I read in a side article that the Rangers would give the gunner a pistol as a secondary weapon.  That is certainly lighter than carrying the M4, M16,  M16+M203 that the fellow carrying an AT-4 would also have..  But in a standard infantry squad or platoon, would you want to make that type of change?  Give up a rifle (usable in just about every situation) versus an a more niche weapon system?  Or just tack on the extra weight?
It is the same problem with any heavy weapon -- MG, RPG-7, or Carl-Gustav. Even AT-4s are a problem at 6.7kg.
 
I suggest reading http://thedonovan.com/archives/modernwarriorload/ModernWarriorsCombatLoadReport.pdf for more details on how bad the problem is with overloaded soldiers.
 
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joe6pack       9/15/2014 11:34:36 AM
Yeah, I think the report (although a very good one) is sadly on the optimistic side..
 
As squads and platoons are rarely at full strength, so key items get redistributed amongst those troops available..
 
There is also always commanders discretion.. so extra things get carried (particularly water and ammo)..
 
Worst case for me personally, was doing a stint as one of the company commanders RTOs..  I wasn't a particularly big guy.. carrying close to my body weight.. think 122 lbs.. I weighed 135 at the time.  I think the only guys that had it worse were the AGs for the M240s.. packing around 130-135.
 
Doesn't seem like things have gotten better...
 
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avatar3    Weight   9/16/2014 9:28:11 AM
   In 109BC the Roman Emperor Marius made some "reforms" and standardized the march load of the Roman Soldier. Each soldier was to wear his personnel equipment, carry 15 days rations and some squad equipment. This meant that in addition to body armor  soldiers could be carrying another 50-60 lbs. Marches on paved roads were at least 20 miles per day, many marches were on unimproved terrain. Soldiers ended up with  so much weight that they were issued forked walking sticks to help tote and balance. Additional equipment such as tents were carried on mules - one mule for each 8 -10 men. Marius soldiers jokingly called themselves Marius's Mules. Still 2000 years later the load does not seem to have  gone down!
 
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keffler25       9/16/2014 4:54:45 PM
BULL.
 
 
Glad to see you do0 NOT know what you discuss. 


 

This is the effect of an HE round similar to the PFF round used in the M40A1. There is no TOW equivalent to this warhead;


This is what the projectile used in M40A1's M581 APERS round does to enemy infantry. There is no TOW equivalent to this warhead;


 

"It is true that it takes about 30-40 seconds between shots. But the backblast is no where as dangerous, you can shoot that through own infantry forward with a little common sense..."

With a fiber-optic cable unreeling at 700mph like the fastest wire saw in history? No thank you. That wire also has a nasty tendency to short-out the missile and the guidance unit if it touches water, so firing the TOW over rivers and lakes is prohibited in the US military. It also has a tendency to snag on things and snap, so firing it past anything that it might catch on is also prohibited.

 

This is not the case with the LAHAT missile, that's faster, longer-ranged, and more powerful than the TOW, because it's laser-guided. Why bring-up the LAHAT? Because it's launchable from the M40A1;


 

Compared to the M40A1, all the TOW launchers do is fire a hugely inferior missile.

 

"...and if you want the other warhead effects, those are not impossible to make the missiles to carry."

See above.

 

"Consider that the people who chose TOW did think about a choice between an antitank missile screen set back from enemy machine gunners, or infantry setting up recoiless rifles (which have poor accuracy beyond 700 meters within  range of Russian PKMs...  and those DShks on all those Russian tanks."

The tanks were the only thing they could think of, despite the fact that there were only about 50,000 of them in Eastern Europe. That's in addition to 12,000 BMPs, 100,000+ APCs, 500,000+ trucks, and millions of infantry --- to name a few. Tanks have never exceeded 5% of the total fighting strength of any land force, and their logistical complications guarantee that they never will. That makes it pretty obvious that the US military's priorities were wrong.

 

Also, I reiterate that the effective range of the M40A1 is 1340m, not 700m.
 
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keffler25       9/17/2014 9:26:57 AM
Hmmm. Shaped charge (Munroe effect against stone and wood?) and then a grenade. Odd . I would have thought squash head would have been the way to go. A pancake charge would spall fragments off the the target barrier at 10-20,000 m/s. Gravel or spitballs kills just as much as steel, even if it is made out of paste board at those velocities and no body armor is going to save you from that or the accompanying blast pulse. 
 
 
 
 
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WarNerd       9/18/2014 1:57:33 AM
Hmmm. Shaped charge (Munroe effect against stone and wood?) and then a grenade. Odd . I would have thought squash head would have been the way to go. A pancake charge would spall fragments off the the target barrier at 10-20,000 m/s. Gravel or spitballs kills just as much as steel, even if it is made out of paste board at those velocities and no body armor is going to save you from that or the accompanying blast pulse. 
The combination of a shaped charge to bore the hole and a grenade as a tamped charge ruptures the wall from within producing a usable breach with a smaller warhead.  It also has a smaller minimum safe distance, especially along the plane of the wall being breached, so troops can be closer to exploit the breach faster, hopefully before the enemy can reinforce the troops in the area breached.
 
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