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Subject: M4 in the harsh spotlight, again
Something Meatier    4/20/2008 11:01:21 PM
Colt's grip on military rifle criticized Associated Press, 4/20/08 HARTFORD, Conn. - No weapon is more important to tens of thousands of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan than the carbine rifle. And for well over a decade, the military has relied on one company, Colt Defense of Hartford, Conn., to make the M4s they trust with their lives. Now, as Congress considers spending millions more on the guns, this exclusive arrangement is being criticized as a bad deal for American forces as well as taxpayers, according to interviews and research conducted by The Associated Press. "What we have is a fat contractor in Colt who's gotten very rich off our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," says Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla. The M4, which can fire at a rate of 700 to 950 bullets a minute, is a shorter and lighter version of the company's M16 rifle first used 40 years ago during the Vietnam War. It normally carries a 30-round magazine. At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines. "And if you tend to have the problem at the wrong time, you're putting your life on the line," says Coburn, who began examining the M4's performance last year after receiving complaints from soldiers. "The fact is, the American GI today doesn't have the best weapon. And they ought to." U.S. military officials don't agree. They call the M4 an excellent carbine. When the time comes to replace the M4, they want a combat rifle that is leaps and bounds beyond what's currently available. "There's not a weapon out there that's significantly better than the M4," says Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of combat developments at the Army Infantry Center in Fort Benning, Ga. "To replace it with something that has essentially the same capabilities as we have today doesn't make good sense." Colt's exclusive production agreement ends in June 2009. At that point, the Army, in its role as the military's principal buyer of firearms, may have other gunmakers compete along with Colt for continued M4 production. Or, it might begin looking for a totally new weapon. "We haven't made up our mind yet," Radcliffe says. William Keys, Colt's chief executive officer, says the M4 gets impressive reviews from the battlefield. And he worries that bashing the carbine will undermine the confidence the troops have in it. "The guy killing the enemy with this gun loves it," says Keys, a former Marine Corps general who was awarded the Navy Cross for battlefield valor in Vietnam. "I'm not going to stand here and disparage the senator, but I think he's wrong." In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4. While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam during a firefight. And the relationship between the Army and Colt has been frosty at times. Concerned over the steadily rising cost of the M4, the Army forced Colt to lower its prices two years ago by threatening to buy rifles from another supplier. Prior to the warning, Colt "had not demonstrated any incentive to consider a price reduction," then-Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, an Army acquisition official, wrote in a November 2006 report. Coburn is the M4's harshest and most vocal critic. But his concern is shared by others, who point to the "SCAR," made by Belgian armorer FN Herstal, and the HK416, produced by Germany's Heckler & Koch, as possible contenders. Both weapons cost about the same as the M4, their manufacturers say. The SCAR is being purchased by U.S. special operations forces, who have their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't. Or won't. "All I know is, we're not having the competition, and the technology that is out there is not in the hands of our troops," says Jack Keane, a former Army general who pushed unsuccessfully for an M4 replacement before retiring four years ago. The dispute over the M4 has been overshadowed by larger but not necessarily more important concerns. When the public's attention is focused on the annual defense budget, it tends to be captured by bigger-ticket items, like the Air Force's F-22 Raptors that cost $160 million each. The Raptor, a radar-evading jet fighter, has never been used in Iraq and Afghanistan. For the troops who patrol Baghdad's still-dangerous neighborhoods or track insurgents along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, there's no piece of gear more critical than the rifles on their shoulders. They go everywhere with them, even to the bathroom and the chow hall. Yet the military has a poor track record for getting high-quality firearms to warfighters. Since the Revolutionary War, mountains of red tape, oversize egos and never-ending arguments o
 
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Herald12345       5/1/2008 6:35:50 PM
Source.


Funny: a plugged barrel burst stoppage is ALWAYS  dangerous.

Herald

 
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YelliChink       5/1/2008 7:37:49 PM

Yellichink,

regards point 3 above, that would be the case only if each rifle coast £1. If the same number were procured as SA80A2s, that budget would increase to all of £65 each.

Point 2. I don't know why you think to bring the aristocracy into this.

Point 4. From your level of argument, I would take a second opinion if you told me that the sky was blue, grass green and water wet.

Gas at 55,000 psi (55 ksi or 380 MPa to use more usual engineering terms) is nasty but:
a) There isn't that much of it.
b) Howitzer breech pressures reach twice that.

I'd gladly debate the SA80 debacle, as it is an interesting and cautionary tale.
However, as you have a tenuous grasp of the facts and seem to be somewhat prejudiced, I shan't bother. Good day sir.

You take exaggeration too seriously. Rifles are still cheap compare to other major defense procurement.

In your society, it's aristocracy. In mine, it's bureaucracy. I just hate to see people who have great power, get away without taking responsibility after major screw-up.

Sky is blue only on earth, water has three phases and grass is green only in spring and summer.

Rifles barrels don't have even 1/4 thickness of howitzer chamber, and you don't put your cheek close to the breech of an howitzer, would you?

Keep up the good job of talking trash while provide no argument or valid evidence whatsoever.

My critics on SA80 ergonomics is right, and you failed to disprove it. All you try to do is to steer the discussion towards: bullpup vs AR-15.

My critics on other firearms and firearms design, safety and operation are also mostly right, and you failed to disprove ANY of my points AT ALL.

And btw, since British Army bough maybe thousands of FN Minimi/M249 (which I do have another not-so-long list of complaints based on first hand experience) to replace L86A1(A2?) and finally put L86 in its best use as marksman's rifle, I don't see any reason that they can't do the same to rifles.
 
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flamingknives       5/2/2008 2:22:40 PM
I prefer facts to hyperbole.

If you're going to witter about proof, would you care to prove your comments about aristocracy, the difference in reloading time for an Armalite and an SA80 and how that effects combat operations?

Unfortunately, I don't have my copy of Roark's at home, but hoop stress increases as internal diameter increases, all else being equal. As howitzers are 20 times wider than a rifle, they need to be thicker. Since the chamber volume (and hence stored energy) of a howitzer is some four hundred times larger than a rifle, you don't need to be that close to it to be in serious trouble, if it does go bang. A catastrophic failure of a howitzer breech inside a SP gun would pulp the turret crew.

Perhaps you could dig up an instance of any bullpup injuring the user by means of a breech explosion?


 
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Herald12345       5/2/2008 2:46:22 PM

I prefer facts to hyperbole.

If you're going to witter about proof, would you care to prove your comments about aristocracy, the difference in reloading time for an Armalite and an SA80 and how that effects combat operations?

Unfortunately, I don't have my copy of Roark's at home, but hoop stress increases as internal diameter increases, all else being equal. As howitzers are 20 times wider than a rifle, they need to be thicker. Since the chamber volume (and hence stored energy) of a howitzer is some four hundred times larger than a rifle, you don't need to be that close to it to be in serious trouble, if it does go bang. A catastrophic failure of a howitzer breech inside a SP gun would pulp the turret crew.

Perhaps you could dig up an instance of any bullpup injuring the user by means of a breech explosion?


Maybe not injury, but function failure I sure can.

Depends on HOW the rifle is made and if there is a possible ammunition mismatch.

Source citation.
[quoting]

To:
Michael F. Golden, Smith & Wesson President and CEO

Dear Mr. Golden:

I am no stranger to firearms ? my father taught me how to shoot at the age of 6. I am also no stranger to mechanical systems.

On October 31, 2006 I purchased a Walther G22 (PW006297) at your store on Page Blvd. I then bought time at your range and started to acquaint myself with the G22. It began to malfunction immediately. The magazines, when placed in the gun, would allow bullets to pivot upward which would get dented by the slide when it traveled forward. The cocking lever would not stay back most of the time. The gun failed to fire now and then despite the firing pin striking the primer area on the bullet. 

To me this was an unsafe gun and after 100 rounds I returned to the counter and asked for a different gun. I was refused. I was told by the salesperson that the gun needed to be "broken" in. To me this seemed ridiculous and I asked to see the manager. A man named Ernie was introduced to me. He took some CCI ammunition from behind the counter and I accompanied him back into the range. He fired the gun 30 times and had 3 malfunctions ?? the same type of malfunctions I had experienced. He told me the magazines were defective and replaced them with 2 used magazines from the tryout G22. He also told me the reason for the other malfunctions was because the gun was dirty and hadn't been cleaned properly before use. In addition he remarked that 22 ammunition was unreliable -- rimfire. I accepted his expert opinion and took the gun home, read the instructions, and cleaned it thoroughly. I found no excess of grease or oil in the gun, only powder residue as one would expect from approximately 200 rounds that we had fired.

I returned to your range about a week later and fired the gun again. This time with only 2 failure to fire incidents which I attributed to ammunition. The slide still failed to stay back after the last round fired, most of the time. I told your range attendant that I was still have problems with the gun. I returned home and cleaned the gun.

About a week later I took the gun to an outdoor range. I placed the magazine in the gun, pulled back the slide, and let go. The slide detonated the first round before it reached its fully forward position. I was hit in the face with debris (mostly my safety glasses and cheek) and the bullet lodged at the opening of the barrel. Rather shocking. I placed the gun back in the case and returned home. I removed the bullet from the chamber and inspected the gun - I could see nothing out of the ordinary and attributed the problem to bad ammunition. I knew of "slamfires" with other guns but have never experienced them, however, I doubted this was a slamfire.

A few days later I took the gun back to the outdoor range. Once again I loaded the magazine into the G22. I held the gun away from me, pulled back the slide and let it go. BANG! Same experience as last time. This time the brass shell fragmented ? a piece cut my hand slightly. Again the bullet was stuck in the barrel.

12/1/06
I left the G22 "as is" brass and all, and brought it in for repair to your roosevelt Ave location. I filled out the repair form at the guard house and left. A week later I was called by one of your people telling me the gun was ready. 

12/8/06
I went to your Roosevelt Ave location to pick the gun up. The guard had trouble finding it as no

 
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flamingknives       5/2/2008 3:52:08 PM
So a blowback operated .22LR rifle failing to feed and setting off the round out of battery and failing to injure the user is sufficient evidence of a breech explosion injuring the user to condemn a gas operated 5.56mm NATO rifle?

Wow.

Technically it is an explosion in the breech area, but hardly the catastrophic failure of the structure of the breech implied, and it failed to injure the user.

If a rifle gives cause for concern then what do people make of shoulder-launched rockets? The instantaneous thrust of a RB199 engine in full reheat next to your head held in check by no more than a bit of kevlar or fibreglass? Especially as the rocket tube will not have been proofed in the same manner as the rifle, being a one-off weapon.
 
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YelliChink       5/2/2008 4:03:30 PM

I prefer facts to hyperbole.

If you're going to witter about proof, would you care to prove your comments about aristocracy, the difference in reloading time for an Armalite and an SA80 and how that effects combat operations?

Unfortunately, I don't have my copy of Roark's at home, but hoop stress increases as internal diameter increases, all else being equal. As howitzers are 20 times wider than a rifle, they need to be thicker. Since the chamber volume (and hence stored energy) of a howitzer is some four hundred times larger than a rifle, you don't need to be that close to it to be in serious trouble, if it does go bang. A catastrophic failure of a howitzer breech inside a SP gun would pulp the turret crew.

Perhaps you could dig up an instance of any bullpup injuring the user by means of a breech explosion?




You know that hoop stress is in CYLINDRICAL coordinate, don't you? So you put (r, theta, z) vector in it to calculate stress in some direction. Oh wait, what's the dimension of the polar angle? By integration over polar angle you get total stress going outward, and it is, trivially, proportional to radius of the barrel. However, when you change back to Cartesian and and look only at microscopic scale, nothing is radically different. However, this is a "thin wall" approximation well below yielding stress. Both howitzer and rifle breech requires numerical or more complex analysis.

Name the ones who green light SA80 project in all levels and put straight their connections, their wives, their boarding  schools and pre-college, you'll get what I meant by aristocracy.


 
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flamingknives       5/2/2008 4:26:42 PM
Name the ones who green light SA80 project in all levels and put straight their connections, their wives, their boarding  schools and pre-college, you'll get what I meant by aristocracy. 

Being as you made the accusation, I think that it would be correct for you to assemble that list. That way we would avoid any confusion.

Oh, and do your more complicated analyses render my observations obsolete?


 
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Herald12345       5/2/2008 4:50:28 PM

So a blowback operated .22LR rifle failing to feed and setting off the round out of battery and failing to injure the user is sufficient evidence of a breech explosion injuring the user to condemn a gas operated 5.56mm NATO rifle?

Wow.

You asked for a bullpup failure serious enough to indicate a possible burst hazard. I gave you one.

Technically it is an explosion in the breech area, but hardly the catastrophic failure of the structure of the breech implied, and it failed to injure the user.

Ehhhhhh, not exactly. it was a misfeed, and a failure of the extractor to function properly, plus the slide failing to move into battery properly. Lots of function failures indicated with the result being the bullet pre-detonates before the action gas seals. Still DANGEROUS.

If a rifle gives cause for concern then what do people make of shoulder-launched rockets? The instantaneous thrust of a RB199 engine in full reheat next to your head held in check by no more than a bit of kevlar or fibreglass? Especially as the rocket tube will not have been proofed in the same manner as the rifle, being a one-off weapon.

A rocket launcher is NOT a rifle.

The difference here is that the exhaust that is the reactant mass to the push force that impels said rocket shoots out the back end and is a clear and present extreme danger to anyone caught in the plume or in the debris danger zone which is the area the plume kicks debris up. The rocket casing, not the  launch tube, is the actual item of extreme concern to the user. It has been known to fail with disastrous  results on rare occasions.


Herald
 
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YelliChink       5/2/2008 5:36:42 PM

Name the ones who green light SA80 project in all levels and put straight their connections, their wives, their boarding  schools and pre-college, you'll get what I meant by aristocracy. 

Being as you made the accusation, I think that it would be correct for you to assemble that list. That way we would avoid any confusion.

Oh, and do your more complicated analyses render my observations obsolete?



What observation? I saw nothing but misunderstood explanation on how rifle and howitzer barrels are under stress. Like Herald said, hazard from rockets are different.

You known I am right on the aristocrats things.
 
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flamingknives       5/2/2008 5:42:30 PM
Herald, I asked for "an instance of any bullpup injuring the user by means of a breech explosion". I was after a discriminator between bullpups and conventional rifles from a safety point of view. The G22 article cited could equally have occurred in a conventional rifle. The question was that is this more dangerous in a bullpup than a conventional rifle? As no injury occurred, it doesn't prove it either way.

I was being generous, as it is still an unconfined explosion closer to the firer's face than it would be in a conventional rifle, if not the breech explosion originally mentioned.

As for rockets, the efflux is part of normal operation. However, the tubes can and do fail (I can think of several instances that have endangered the firer) It's not contained as much as a conventional firearm but it's still a big explosion, it's right next to the users head and the two are separated by a fibre composite thinner than a rifle barrel wall.
 
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