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Subject: M4 in the harsh spotlight, again
Something Meatier    4/20/2008 11:01:21 PM
Colt's grip on military rifle criticized Associated Press, 4/20/08 HARTFORD, Conn. - No weapon is more important to tens of thousands of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan than the carbine rifle. And for well over a decade, the military has relied on one company, Colt Defense of Hartford, Conn., to make the M4s they trust with their lives. Now, as Congress considers spending millions more on the guns, this exclusive arrangement is being criticized as a bad deal for American forces as well as taxpayers, according to interviews and research conducted by The Associated Press. "What we have is a fat contractor in Colt who's gotten very rich off our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," says Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla. The M4, which can fire at a rate of 700 to 950 bullets a minute, is a shorter and lighter version of the company's M16 rifle first used 40 years ago during the Vietnam War. It normally carries a 30-round magazine. At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines. "And if you tend to have the problem at the wrong time, you're putting your life on the line," says Coburn, who began examining the M4's performance last year after receiving complaints from soldiers. "The fact is, the American GI today doesn't have the best weapon. And they ought to." U.S. military officials don't agree. They call the M4 an excellent carbine. When the time comes to replace the M4, they want a combat rifle that is leaps and bounds beyond what's currently available. "There's not a weapon out there that's significantly better than the M4," says Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of combat developments at the Army Infantry Center in Fort Benning, Ga. "To replace it with something that has essentially the same capabilities as we have today doesn't make good sense." Colt's exclusive production agreement ends in June 2009. At that point, the Army, in its role as the military's principal buyer of firearms, may have other gunmakers compete along with Colt for continued M4 production. Or, it might begin looking for a totally new weapon. "We haven't made up our mind yet," Radcliffe says. William Keys, Colt's chief executive officer, says the M4 gets impressive reviews from the battlefield. And he worries that bashing the carbine will undermine the confidence the troops have in it. "The guy killing the enemy with this gun loves it," says Keys, a former Marine Corps general who was awarded the Navy Cross for battlefield valor in Vietnam. "I'm not going to stand here and disparage the senator, but I think he's wrong." In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4. While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam during a firefight. And the relationship between the Army and Colt has been frosty at times. Concerned over the steadily rising cost of the M4, the Army forced Colt to lower its prices two years ago by threatening to buy rifles from another supplier. Prior to the warning, Colt "had not demonstrated any incentive to consider a price reduction," then-Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, an Army acquisition official, wrote in a November 2006 report. Coburn is the M4's harshest and most vocal critic. But his concern is shared by others, who point to the "SCAR," made by Belgian armorer FN Herstal, and the HK416, produced by Germany's Heckler & Koch, as possible contenders. Both weapons cost about the same as the M4, their manufacturers say. The SCAR is being purchased by U.S. special operations forces, who have their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't. Or won't. "All I know is, we're not having the competition, and the technology that is out there is not in the hands of our troops," says Jack Keane, a former Army general who pushed unsuccessfully for an M4 replacement before retiring four years ago. The dispute over the M4 has been overshadowed by larger but not necessarily more important concerns. When the public's attention is focused on the annual defense budget, it tends to be captured by bigger-ticket items, like the Air Force's F-22 Raptors that cost $160 million each. The Raptor, a radar-evading jet fighter, has never been used in Iraq and Afghanistan. For the troops who patrol Baghdad's still-dangerous neighborhoods or track insurgents along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, there's no piece of gear more critical than the rifles on their shoulders. They go everywhere with them, even to the bathroom and the chow hall. Yet the military has a poor track record for getting high-quality firearms to warfighters. Since the Revolutionary War, mountains of red tape, oversize egos and never-ending arguments o
 
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YelliChink       4/27/2008 4:36:25 PM
While AR-15's ergonomics is not even considered good today, L85 is certainly at the level of abysmal, if not worse. AK is a thing that every wrong thing put together to become something that actually works. Ergonomically, AK is at the same league of L85, and it doesn't have the accuracy and range. Speed reload an AK is definitely PITA, with the particularly unwieldy banana shaped magazine. The iron sight of AK also sucks, and the reliability goes down with shortage of quality ammo. Russians are focused on 5.45x39 for some time, and Chinese are turning their machines to 5.8x42. Czech and Poland, who used to produce a lot com-bloc stuff, are now making NATO standard equipments. It makes IA not much choice but to stick with what Uncle Sam has to offer. I would say that M16/M4 might not be the best weapons for IA, but at least that it is available to them at the moment.
 
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Yimmy       4/27/2008 6:48:30 PM
Herald, I can well see where you are coming from, but I end up at different conclusions.

I remember when back in late 2002 there was an awful lot of warmongering from American and British politicians (ie Bush and Blair), concerning an invasion of Iraq - and then there was the 2003 invasion of Iraq.  I then, a year or two ago (I honestly can't remember the month), remember hearing a lot of warmongering being said concerning Iran - and nothing came of it.

Just as the CIA, SIS and Pakistan in the late 1980's thought the USSR had spoken their rhetoric concerning the potential invasion of Pakistan, and it turned out to be a bluff - I think Iran has called our bluff today.  I believe Iran is more than happy to have a destabilised and Al Queda ridden Iraq at their borders, because Iraq is an enigma in itself, and is far too occupied with warring amongst itself to be concerned with causing Iran (many factions prolific supporter and supplier) problems.  This is while, Iran is more than happy as the Persians to witness Iraq destabilise the Arab nations.

Pakistan on the other hand, is a nominal ally of the United States.  It is an awkward and twisted relationship, however America labelled India as "Communist lovers" throughout the Cold War, in sentiment if not as a matter of policy, and this legacy is retained I feel to a point.  Pakistan is the favoured state, and while I am well read on Pakistan's involvement in the formation of the Taliban, the links with Al Queda are not so real, while their previous backing of the Mujahideen was indeed at the bequest of the United States.  The largest failing was in the United States stomaching Pakistan's ISI's consistent bias shown in favour of the more radical and religious Afghan warlords.  I believe though, that we are in a far stronger position to influence Pakistan, than we are Iran.  We lost Iran in 1979, while Pakistan has been very close of recent - backhanded though their cooperation may be.  In the 1980's, America only gained their support through the CIA showing a blind eye to their nuclear program (something of a scandal by the CIA, going against Carters policy).  With a mixture of sticks and carrots (F16's?), we can gain results now.

What concerns me, is what Saudi Arabia is up to.  Back in the 1980's and into the 90's the Saudi princes would equal any financial contributions the CIA directed to the Mujihedeen and arms companies/states supplying them.  This was gain the support of radical Islamists in their own country - and these radicals are more prolific now than ever before I would argue.  Someone has to be supplying the Taliban..... all their burst capable radios and other sophisticated equipment they operate is not left over from the 1980's.

Sorry, this post is a bit fragmented.  In general I think Afghanistan is the fight we can win - while I think the British army's institutional experience in fighting insurgencies is more relevant in Afghanistan than Iraq.

As an aside, I feel we were backing the wrong team in the 1980's in Afghanistan.  Communism was the enemy - however in the context of Afghanistan - the Communists were the non-religious moderates - while those the CIA (through the SIS) were backing, were by and large the radical Islamists who are causing us problems today.  We should have learned from the Spanish civil war of the 1930's, whereby the Russians (the only non-Fascist state in Europe with any backbone at the time), ordered the suppression of the Spanish Communists, in favour of European Socialists - so as to maintain the fragile alliance of politics fighting the Fascists and Franco.  In the 1980's we were fighting the lesser of the two evils.


 
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Yimmy       4/27/2008 6:49:29 PM

While AR-15's ergonomics is not even considered good today,

AR15 ergonomics are outstanding.  Is there any rifle you do personally like?
 
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YelliChink       4/27/2008 6:59:06 PM


I think Iran is manageable. They no more want a saddam type state or an Al Qaeda state on their border than we do. Common interests might convince the Ayatollahs that a Malarki regime is a good thing for them. The current nonsense I still read as Iran's defensive response to US with the poor British being on the receiving end of it as the push me-pull you. {Those five British hostages inside Iran being used as bargaining chips. for example).

Herald


My position is that Iran is more dangerous than Pakistan. The fact is that we don't really know what Ayatollahs think. They might still be very into reviving Persian empire and extend/expand into Arab lands by means of destabilizing as the way they are doing now in Iraq.

Pakistan, on the other hand, remains a mess. One good development of Pakistan is it they no longer has the ability to destabilize anywhere other than itself. I doubt that Pakistanis have the resolve and the resource to deal with tribal land, and neither can it afford to lose face and allow US forces to clean house for them. Either way, they have more headache. If nothing really big changes, NATO forces will probably still in Afghanistan 20 years latter. Old custom die hard.
 
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YelliChink       4/27/2008 7:12:54 PM

AR15 ergonomics are outstanding.  Is there any rifle you do personally like?

Not if you are left handed, or have to operate it from left shoulder, which the outstanding ergonomics suddenly become total bitch. Stag is making left-handed AR15 uppers for years, but the mag catch is always on the right side. It was good 40 years ago, when good ergonomics was still not widely available. G36 has sound ergonomic design, but it seems to be a bit too bulky for me, as it was designed to fit German soldiers, not Asian soldiers. Being trained to operate AR type weapons myself and being familiar with M14 as well as a natural right-hander, I feel that I might be too old to switch since both have OK ergonomics (with pistol grip stock for M14), even though I wonder M14 is better operated on left shoulder.

Israeli Tavor seems to be very good if you are looking for good bullpup design.
 
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Herald12345       4/27/2008 7:33:24 PM

Herald, I can well see where you are coming from, but I end up at different conclusions.

After reading below, I can see why.

I remember when back in late 2002 there was an awful lot of warmongering from American and British politicians (ie Bush and Blair), concerning an invasion of Iraq - and then there was the 2003 invasion of Iraq.  I then, a year or two ago (I honestly can't remember the month), remember hearing a lot of warmongering being said concerning Iran - and nothing came of it.

And thankfully none did. Iran is a lot different and far TOUGHER than Iraq.

Just as the CIA, SIS and Pakistan in the late 1980's thought the USSR had spoken their rhetoric concerning the potential invasion of Pakistan, and it turned out to be a bluff - I think Iran has called our bluff today.  I believe Iran is more than happy to have a destabilised and Al Queda ridden Iraq at their borders, because Iraq is an enigma in itself, and is far too occupied with warring amongst itself to be concerned with causing Iran (many factions prolific supporter and supplier) problems.  This is while, Iran is more than happy as the Persians to witness Iraq destabilise the Arab nations.

That is a perfect description of the Iraq Malarki regime. And it is why I think that Iran will both cooperate with us and oppose us in our objectives, but not to the same extent as Pakistan. That Sunni tilt we have, handicaps us in Tehran. CREF what I have to say about those Saudi bastards.

Pakistan on the other hand, is a nominal ally of the United States.  It is an awkward and twisted relationship, however America labeled India as "Communist lovers" throughout the Cold War, in sentiment if not as a matter of policy, and this legacy is retained I feel to a point.  Pakistan is the favoured state, and while I am well read on Pakistan's involvement in the formation of the Taliban, the links with Al Queda are not so real, while their previous backing of the Mujahideen was indeed at the bequest of the United States.  The largest failing was in the United States stomaching Pakistan's ISI's consistent bias shown in favour of the more radical and religious Afghan warlords.  I believe though, that we are in a far stronger position to influence Pakistan, than we are Iran.  We lost Iran in 1979, while Pakistan has been very close of recent - backhanded though their cooperation may be.  In the 1980's, America only gained their support through the CIA showing a blind eye to their nuclear program (something of a scandal by the CIA, going against Carters policy).  With a mixture of sticks and carrots (F16's?), we can gain results now.

Bribes are a a bad way to conduct foreign policy; if you are amateurs. Unfortunately the US State Department and the CIA are full of "amateurs".

I don't want to cooperate with those Islamabad bastards at all; but we may have no choice for the moment, Carter was an ass to lose Iran, [which gave, Brezhnev the Afghan green light.] a bigger ass to get us involved sideways in Afghanistan via Pakistan, and a complete schmuck on Indian relations. Speaking from personal experience, the man was/is a damned fool-almost as big as Kissinger who blew a slim chance we had in  1971 to at least stay and appear neutral in that India-Pakistan blow up-when we should have realized, it was a regional issue and not a USSR versus US tilting match. Its probably why New Delhi still hates America's guts. Washington has a bad habit of supporting dictators and totalitarian regimes over leftist democracies.

What concerns me, is what Saudi Arabia is up to.  Back in the 1980's and into the 90's the Saudi princes would equal any financial contributions the CIA directed to the Mujihedeen and arms companies/states supplying them.  This was gain the support of radical Islamists in their own country - and these radicals are more prolific now than ever before I would argue.  Someone has to be supplying the Taliban..... all their burst capable radios and other sophisticated equipment they operate is not left over from the 1980's.

And that is where you and I agree. I suggest that the Wahabbists are still in the game of islamic prosletization   to destabilize the ME and then the world by any means at their disposal-money being their weapon of choice.
 
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maruben    Deflector   4/28/2008 1:11:37 PM
AR15 ergonomics are outstanding.  Is there any rifle you do personally like?

Not if you are left handed, or have to operate it from left shoulder, which the outstanding ergonomics suddenly become total bitch.
 
 
No big issues since the M-16a2 model includes a deflector for left handed persons.  It deflects the brass so it falls down.
 
 
 
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flamingknives       4/28/2008 3:47:21 PM
I suppose that if you want to be super-picky, the c ocking handle on the Armalite is not in an ideal place as you have to move your head away to use it. Plus the separate forward assist, not all the controls are ambidextrous and the stock has a minimum length. I hardly see any of those being a huge problem unless you are so left-handed that you can't shoot right at all (which is hardly anyone) or you think that you are playing counterstrike and a split second longer on the reload is a problem.
 
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Yimmy       4/28/2008 5:17:26 PM
With regard to the separate forward assists flaming, bare in mind that you will have tilted the rifle to the left to observe why the rifle failed to fire, so moving the forward assist into an easy to access angle on enacting an immediate action drill.

With regard to the position of the cocking handle - you only need once manually cock the rifle and chamber a round - after that the bolt will hold open, and you simple need replace the magazine and flick the bolt release catch.
 
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maruben    A picture of the brass deflector   4/28/2008 5:27:35 PM
 
 
New rear sight, brass deflector and forward assist of M16A2 on
 
 
 
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