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Subject: Red dot scope
GOP    3/1/2008 3:17:12 PM
Got a question regarding red dot scopes. I have a Yugoslavian M70 (ak variant) that is very accurate as far as AK's go (2 inch groups at 100 yards), and Im thinking of adding a red dot scope to it (using Ultimak's rail system). My question is, what do you guys recommend as far as optics, etc? I am looking at a Kobra, a Aimpoint, EOTech, and a Trijicon. Anyone have any recommendations, advice, etc?
 
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YelliChink       3/1/2008 4:08:23 PM
Good to see you back on the SP, GOP. Congradulations that you have a good rifle!
 
Anyway, not all red-dot look-a-like work the same.
 
Aimpoint use some sort of parellel reflex optics, while EOTech ones are holographic. IIRC that Trijicon sights are illuminated, not real red-dot. They are mostly designed to be fit on ARs, though other rifles may work. My suggestion is to get some crappy made-in-China reflex red-dot sights from eBay for less than $100 instead of spending $600 optics on guns that worth probably less than that.
 
 
 
Did I mention that they will break someday and thus the cheaper the better?
 
Practically, Ultimak mount allows only scout-type mounting on AKs. Since I don't know why scout-rifles are mounted that way, I can't say I can give you advise on choice of scopes on that purpose. Shotgun red-dot sight makes some sense to me, but
 
The other thing is that although sights look cool on guns, they might not be practical in real-life scenario. Reflex and hologram sights may or may not have magnification, and magnification is important in rec shooting. For home defense, I would say ditch the over-penetrating AK and get a Mossberg (with bayo mount, but that's my preference, since I do know how to use one). Most sights need recalib each time you put them on. Don't buy into what advertisement says, because most rail systems are made of aluminum that deforms a little bit under stress. The ones that requies no recalib are made with steel and have spring system to keep them in place, such as SUSAT used by UK.
 
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Horsesoldier       3/4/2008 12:09:48 PM
There are basically two possible routes for scoping an AK.  One is the scout scope set up that the Ultimak and similar railed front ends allow for (to include scout scope mounts that replace your rear sight on the rifle).  The other option is to get the standard Soviet/Warsaw Pact night vision mounting bracket put onto your rifle (if it does not have it already), which allows use of scopes which don't have unlimited eye relief.
 
On the AimPoint and EOTech, it's pretty much a toss up, and either will work on a scout scope set up.  Some guys like one, some prefer the other (personally, I'm a bigger fan of the EOTech).  If you want to go with the EOTech, my recommendation would be to get a 512 model, and not mess with spending the extra money for stuff you don't need that the 550s entail.
 
The Kobra has a pretty good reputation among AK guys, though I've never used one.  I have used a PK-AS and was pretty impressed with that scope -- but it is not unlimited eye relief and can't be used on a scout scope set up.  If you can find a Kobra, they tend to run less than the EOTech or AimPoint by at least $100, so you can get "authenticity" (sort of, in the case of a Yugo rifle) along with saving some money . . .
 
The other option you might want to look at is getting the scope bracket put on your rifle (it's something you can do yourself with some basic power tools, if I'm not mistaken) and then check out some of the Russian magnified optics.  I've always wanted to see how well an AK would run with their ACOG equivalent (x4 power POSP, I think) fitted.  Their magnifying optics are also quite a bit cheaper than our (good) ones.
 
 
 
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Horsesoldier       3/4/2008 12:29:51 PM


IIRC that Trijicon sights are illuminated, not real red-dot.
 
The Trijicon Reflex is for all intents and purposes a red dot, it just uses tritium to power the dot (or triangle or whatever) instead of batteries.  While not seen much anymore in military service, they work pretty well.
 
Did I mention that they will break someday and thus the cheaper the better?
 
The cheaper the inital quality, the more likely this will be the case.  EOTech, AimPoint, and Trijicon (among others) all put out a pretty sturdy product that tends to hold up well to heavy use.
 
Since I don't know why scout-rifles are mounted that way, I can't say I can give you advise on choice of scopes on that purpose.
 
The logic on using the long (or intermediate) eye relief scopes on rifles in a classic scout scope set up is that pushing the optic forward like that makes for much better situational awareness, makes it easier for two-eye-open shooting, and is quicker to pick up and get on moving targets.
 
It's less of an issue with red dots, which allow for two eye open shooting anyway, but it does not hurt them any to be mounted that far forward.
 
Most sights need recalib each time you put them on. Don't buy into what advertisement says, because most rail systems are made of aluminum that deforms a little bit under stress.
 
My issue M4 with aluminum rails will hold within about 1 MOA with an optic removed and put back on as long as it is torqued the same, as with ARMS/LaRue/etc mounts or just by marking on the screws where it needs to be twisted down to.  Possibly not suitable for long range precision shooting, but just fine for CQB work or the kind of accuracy you get on an AK in any case.
 
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YelliChink       3/4/2008 3:18:20 PM
Thanks Horsesoldier to correct me on some issues and let me learn something new. The remark on cheaper optics is refer to $20 POS that you can find on eBay, not $300, $400 or even $600 ones made by EOTech, Aimpoint or Trijicon. Although you probably won't agree, I think GOP is a civlian rec shooter and needs to have some initial experience on optics handling before migrating to something that is truly better. After being tired of dealing with that POS, spilling CLP onto the optics multiple times, scratching or breaking some components, he'll know what he's looking for. I have to presume that he doesn't have professional armorer with full set of torque wrenches in his vicinity to help him, and GOP maybe surrounded by gun salesperson whose job is to sqeezeas as much money out of his pocket. He won't do field maneuver with his rifle, so the POS optics may survive longer than we expect. That's why I suggest him to go cheap first.
 
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YelliChink    Horsesoldier   3/4/2008 3:34:15 PM
Well, I forgot to ask further question on previous post.
 
On scout rifle:
 
I've heard people arguing that scout rifle is designed for big game hunting, and not for people hunting. I have no knowledge about hunting and thus don't know why that is an advantage due to enhanced SA. Why do people need SA during big game hunting?
 
On bayonet:
 
Your opinion on usefulnees of mounted bayonet in home defense?
 
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GOP       3/4/2008 11:45:50 PM
Im gonna go cheap on the scope to start. What do you think of this, will it work on a scout system?
 
 
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GOP       3/4/2008 11:46:01 PM
Im gonna go cheap on the scope to start. What do you think of this, will it work on a scout system?
 
 
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Horsesoldier       3/5/2008 8:35:00 PM

Im gonna go cheap on the scope to start. What do you think of this, will it work on a scout system?

 

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/22308-16645-1506.html
" href_cetemp=">http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/22308-16645-1506.html
">link


Link doesn't work, but I do agree with Yellichink's idea of starting with something you can A) afford and B) learn on/mess up/etc.
 
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Horsesoldier       3/5/2008 8:41:20 PM
Did work when quoted for some reason.  I've used one of those before -- quite workable, not sure on durability, but plenty good for the range.
 
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Horsesoldier       3/5/2008 9:24:54 PM

Well, I forgot to ask further question on previous post.

 

On scout rifle:

 

I've heard people arguing that scout rifle is designed for big game hunting, and not for people hunting. I have no knowledge about hunting and thus don't know why that is an advantage due to enhanced SA. Why do people need SA during big game hunting?

 

On bayonet:

 

Your opinion on usefulnees of mounted bayonet in home defense?


 
I think the situational awareness angle was that it helped with target acquisition for hunters, and made it easier to hit moving targets, while still allowing for all the benefits of a (somewhat low powered) scope.
 
On the bayonet angle -- I think they do the job and such.  My main concern with them would be that depending on where you are a district attorney or the police might consider it over zealous for home defense.

 
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