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Subject: What does the US Army need in a next generation machine gun?
Herald12345    2/20/2008 5:04:22 PM
Or for that matter, what do the experts hewre consider would be achievable improvements in the general purpose machine gun? Since I am not an expert on this subject I'm here to learn. I will ask questions though. Its part of the educating Herald series. Herald
 
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DarthAmerica       2/25/2008 4:18:02 PM

a modern spitzer 7/50 bullet massing 4.5 grams that strikes at 800 mps @100 meters from the muzzle? I'm coming up with about 1440 joules.or 1060 foot pounds strike.

Is that a good start point?

Herald


For a SAW type weapon maybe. Too light or too slow for a GPMG target set IMHO.


Can wait to get the M240E6-ti
peosoldier.army.mil/factsheets/SW_CSW_M240B.pdf

-DA
 
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flamingknives       2/25/2008 4:45:18 PM
I know PMCs and CMCs. What's an AMC?

Cost is, naturally, important.
As are ergonomics, logistics, range, ISTAR capabilities, length, reliability, strength, stability, maintenance, training, upgrade path etc.
Rather than supply an exhaustive list, a short example is sufficient to illustrate the concept.

I'll concede the difference between over-specification and poor specification. It remains that government officials generally do not have a good grasp of the state of the art, so the more specifications that come from a government department, the more likely it is that some of them will be ill-considered.
 
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bartrat       2/25/2008 9:11:11 PM

Why not stamp form and weld?
To be honest this was only an example to illustrate, it sprung to my mind because you can have different wall thicknesses. This way you can make it strong where it needs to be and you can make it light where it doesn't need to be that strong. It's also already used for handguns if I'm not mistaken.

Stamping and welding basically limits you to 1 wall thickness, welding also may require heat treatments afterwards.

Design
the weapon to so that the harmonic induced in its structure is not in
phase with the cyclic operation? Example use an oscillating spring mass
to dampen barrel whip  or jitter as well as reduce recoil. (Or use the KRISS anti recoil mechanism in it? )
I think it's best to limit the number of parts as much as is reasonable. Less to go wrong that way, so if you can limit vibration so that don't need to put the extra parts in there, then that's better in my opinion.

You will still run into unexpected problems
I know, but having avoided a lot of them by making a simple list makes it worthwile. Also I feel better facing such problems when  I have 4 other viable alternatives up my sleeve should the one I chose have issues I cannot fix. (I like having a "plan B")




Had the pleasure this weekend of firing the KRISS .45ACP semi-automatic submachine prototype at my local gun store. It was only 6lbs. mostly plastic and high tech alloys. Had LESS recoil than the Thompson Model 1927 semi-auto submachine gun.(weight about 13lb) that I own.  The KRISS recoil system works very well.
A machine gun with the KRISS system combined with space-age alloys (Ti or Sc or Al alloy) and high strength polymers would reduce weight very well and still work.
My two cent suggestion is to use the .223 M16 round, lighter and works well in close-in engagements. I know it is a wimpy round and does not penetrate well; but if the goal is weight reduction.......
 
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longrifle       2/25/2008 9:24:12 PM
"In short Herald, make it lighter." - DarthAmerica

Darth,

Agreed, because my primary transport off the drop zone was leather personnel carriers.  I like lighter.  Lighter makes sense.  But can it really be much lighter than 23-24lbs if we stay with 7.62?  
 
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Herald12345    FK answer   2/25/2008 11:36:25 PM

I know PMCs and CMCs. What's an AMC?

http://www.patentstorm.us/images/spacer.gif" height="1" width="10">

Amorphous metal - ceramic composite material


Herald
 
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Herald12345    FK answer   2/26/2008 12:00:29 AM



a modern spitzer 7/50 bullet massing 4.5 grams that strikes at 800 mps @100 meters from the muzzle? I'm coming up with about 1440 joules.or 1060 foot pounds strike.

Is that a good start point?

Herald



For a SAW type weapon maybe. Too light or too slow for a GPMG target set IMHO.


Can wait to get the M240E6-ti
peosoldier.army.mil/factsheets/SW_CSW_M240B.pdf

-DA
A modern spitzer 7/50 bullet massing 7.5 grams that strikes at 1000 mps @100 meters from the muzzle.

Now you get 3750 joules or 2760 footpounds of strike. THAT has got to be enough kinetic energy in an LMG  even for  Darth. It will chew through double cinder block like it isn't even there since the bullets will have to be compressed density  metal matrix alloy to operate properly at the energies and densities suggested. That is incidentally over 55,000 n/cm^2 or over 85,000 PSI. You will not be using aluminum carbon iron composites in THAT barrel.

Herald
 
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WarNerd       2/26/2008 2:16:56 AM

A modern spitzer 7/50 bullet massing 7.5 grams that strikes at 1000 mps @100 meters from the muzzle.

Now you get 3750 joules or 2760 footpounds of strike. THAT has got to be enough kinetic energy in an LMG  even for  Darth. It will chew through double cinder block like it isn't even there since the bullets will have to be compressed density  metal matrix alloy to operate properly at the energies and densities suggested. That is incidentally over 55,000 n/cm^2 or over 85,000 PSI. You will not be using aluminum carbon iron composites in THAT barrel.

Herald

Nice, but does it deliver the required performance at 1500 feet?
 
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Herald12345       2/26/2008 2:40:52 AM
Multiply all values by about 89%

Herald
 
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Herald12345    Correction of a typo and unclear statement.    2/26/2008 7:46:46 AM

Multiply all values by about 89%

Herald


Multiply all variable values by approximately 80%.

Brainfart.

Herald
 
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flamingknives       2/26/2008 1:54:00 PM
Herald,

I'm not familar with AMCs at all. Any chance of a description?
 
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