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Subject: USA #1 in arms ownership! Makes you feel Proud!
RockyMTNClimber    8/28/2007 6:02:37 PM
The right of self defense is universal. UN should mandate all nations allow their citizens access to gun ownership! Check Six Rocky ht**tp://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2007-08-28T174254Z_01_L28348938_RTRUKOC_0_US-WORLD-FIREARMS.xml&pageNumber=0&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage2 By Laura MacInnis GENEVA (Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a report released on Tuesday said. U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies. About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year are purchased in the United States, it said. "There is roughly one firearm for every seven people worldwide. Without the United States, though, this drops to about one firearm per 10 people," it said. India had the world's second-largest civilian gun arsenal, with an estimated 46 million firearms outside law enforcement and the military, though this represented just four guns per 100 people there. China, ranked third with 40 million privately held guns, had 3 firearms per 100 people. Germany, France, Pakistan, Mexico, Brazil and Russia were next in the ranking of country's overall civilian gun arsenals. On a per-capita basis, Yemen had the second most heavily armed citizenry behind the United States, with 61 guns per 100 people, followed by Finland with 56, Switzerland with 46, Iraq with 39 and Serbia with 38. Continued... France, Canada, Sweden, Austria and Germany were next, each with about 30 guns per 100 people, while many poorer countries often associated with violence ranked much lower. Nigeria, for instance, had just one gun per 100 people. "Firearms are very unevenly distributed around the world. The image we have of certain regions such as Africa or Latin America being awash with weapons -- these images are certainly misleading," Small Arms Survey director Keith Krause said. "Weapons ownership may be correlated with rising levels of wealth, and that means we need to think about future demand in parts of the world where economic growth is giving people larger disposable income," he told a Geneva news conference. The report, which relied on government data, surveys and media reports to estimate the size of world arsenals, estimated there were 650 million civilian firearms worldwide, and 225 million held by law enforcement and military forces. Five years ago, the Small Arms Survey had estimated there were a total of just 640 million firearms globally. "Civilian holdings of weapons worldwide are much larger than we previously believed," Krause said, attributing the increase largely to better research and more data on weapon distribution networks. Only about 12 percent of civilian weapons are thought to be registered with authorities.
 
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SgtSkrap       9/5/2007 1:12:08 AM
 If you want the stats on gun violence, I am sure that Aussie Digger would be able to enlighten you as to the pros of gun control. He is a detective and works in law enforcement.
 
    Ok, now I would like all of you to sit back and really think about those two sentences. Think about how they relate to a discussion on wether or not the general populace of  any said "free" country should be allowed to posess a firearm. It is truly the crux of the debate.
 
   Also, some of you folks that try to remind us readers as to what a victim should think about before they commit themselves to deadly force seriously need to stop drinking the bong water. As as been said by so many throughout history for so long, as soon as that first bullet, slash of a knife, swing of a fist , splinter of a kicked in door, goes past your head, all those LAWS go right out the window. I guess I am 10th century. Ask yourselves as you sit there and read this at your little computer nooks, would you have the conviction to be 10th century if someone rattled your front door right now.
 
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patriot17       9/5/2007 11:31:45 AM


 Perhaps spending a little less time fretting over gun law and a little more time asking yourself why the US has so many of its citizens either victim’s of crime or behind bars inside the burgeoning prison system. I’ll give you a clue it’s not guns but it is something else the USA has more of than any other country in the western world.


Poverty.




We also have many, many, many, more people than any western country on the planet..as well as many, many, many, more immigrants who have shown themselves to be vastly uneducated, desperate, and coming from countries where crime is rampant..all factors in increased crime rates in the U.S...so enough with the poverty issue...because we also have more of something else than any western country...MONEY...kinda ironic eh?
 
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paul1970       9/5/2007 11:53:34 AM
 

5. Tightening gun controls does not reduce crimes. In Australia and The U.K. you find crimes went up with the siezure of weapons.


 

There is no cause and effect for gun ownership and crime. In fact guns help prevent crimes, on a global scale and on a local scale.

 

Check Six

 

Rocky


ermmmmm......
tightening gun laws reduces crimes carried out with...... guns.....
 
the cause and effect with guns is that more people die when a gun is used in a crime than not....
 
how many firearm related deaths are there in the USA every year compared to other countries?
 
why do you feel that you need to own a firearm?
 
 
as a silly aside..... why don't gun manufacturers make guns like whitegoods manufacturers???? ie they stop working after 13 month just outside of your 1 year warranty....    :-)
 
Paul
 
 

 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Clearly established already...   9/5/2007 11:59:09 AM
ermmmmm......
tightening gun laws reduces crimes carried out with...... guns.....
Statistically gun control's only tangible effect on crime is it is followed by increases. That holds for the recent changes in UK, Australia, and Canada. Liberalizing laws in the US has reduced crimes.
 
the cause and effect with guns is that more people die when a gun is used in a crime than not....
See above. You don't know your facts.
 
how many firearm related deaths are there in the USA every year compared to other countries?
See above, rates going down with liberal gun ownership and carry laws.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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SgtSkrap       9/5/2007 3:59:00 PM


 



5. Tightening gun controls does not reduce crimes. In Australia and The U.K. you find crimes went up with the siezure of weapons.




 



There is no cause and effect for gun ownership and crime. In fact guns help prevent crimes, on a global scale and on a local scale.



 



Check Six



 



Rocky




ermmmmm......

tightening gun laws reduces crimes carried out with...... guns.....

 

the cause and effect with guns is that more people die when a gun is used in a crime than not....

 

how many firearm related deaths are there in the USA every year compared to other countries?

 

why do you feel that you need to own a firearm?

 

 

as a silly aside..... why don't gun manufacturers make guns like whitegoods manufacturers???? ie they stop working after 13 month just outside of your 1 year warranty....    :-)

 

Paul

 

 


 


As Rocky answered your first three,
Who are you to even ask the question why I need to own a firearm? My owning one doesn't infringe on any one of your rights(if you even live in the U.S.). I would never ask you why do you feel you need to own a toilet brush.
 
 And to your silly aside, you can save your cantaloupe when your fridge goes on the fritz, you can't save YOUR melon when your firearm does.
 
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flamingknives       9/5/2007 5:13:50 PM
I have to go with the chaps from the US on this.
Tighter firearms laws do not necessarily mean a decrease on the criminal use of guns.

Certainly in the UK, since the banning of handguns, the number of crimes involving handguns has increased for a given unit of time. So clearly it hasn't worked as intended. One might argue that the number of handgun crimes might have gone up more had the ban not been enacted, but that would be difficult to prove.

As for why I would wish to own a firearm (for the record I do not, currently) is that I like target shooting. The focus and discipline of it appeal to me.
 
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theBird       9/5/2007 5:58:09 PM







theBird has already broadly stated my position in his posts. You can have guns. You can have poverty (although I can’t imagine why this would be desirable). Just don’t mix the two. If Glasgow had gun crime instead of knife crime we would of given Johannesburg a run for its money for murder capital of the world. Desperate men do not fear bullets.




 

I think is it fair to say that looking down the barrel of a gun does much to encourage men to reassess just how desperate they are.  Most will find that, when it comes down to it, they do fear bullets and the prospect of their death.

And just because a criminal doesn't fear bullets doesn't mean that they will do any less damage to him when traveling at high speeds

 
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theBird       9/5/2007 6:00:41 PM

I have to go with the chaps from the US on this.
Tighter firearms laws do not necessarily mean a decrease on the criminal use of guns.

Certainly in the UK, since the banning of handguns, the number of crimes involving handguns has increased for a given unit of time. So clearly it hasn't worked as intended. One might argue that the number of handgun crimes might have gone up more had the ban not been enacted, but that would be difficult to prove.

As for why I would wish to own a firearm (for the record I do not, currently) is that I like target shooting. The focus and discipline of it appeal to me.

I'd have to agree with this one, the millions of pot smokers in the US are testement that making something illegal doesn't make it disappear.
 
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Asymmetric    Reply   9/6/2007 1:49:51 AM






 Perhaps spending a little less time fretting over gun law and a little more time asking yourself why the US has so many of its citizens either victim’s of crime or behind bars inside the burgeoning prison system. I’ll give you a clue it’s not guns but it is something else the USA has more of than any other country in the western world.




Poverty.







We also have many, many, many, more people than any western country on the planet..as well as many, many, many, more immigrants who have shown themselves to be vastly uneducated, desperate, and coming from countries where crime is rampant..all factors in increased crime rates in the U.S...so enough with the poverty issue...because we also have more of something else than any western country...MONEY...kinda ironic eh?


Is that something to be proud of? Being the richest and the poorest? Does that not strike you as an injustice and part of the problem (I did say “part” there is many other contributing factors). Shouldn’t all residents of the US be able to pursue there own American dream and not be held back by the circumstances of there birth or misfortune?

Besides, I could if I chose to, drag this argument on and knock out EU-27 statistics which match or surpass the USA in total wealth/population/diversity if those are the only factors concerning you and the number would still look grim where the US is concerned.

Furthermore the USA is not the richest per capita there are numerous nations richer such as Denmark (which you may also find “ironic” since Denmark is one of the most egalitarian social countries that exists as of today, with currently the highest tax rate in the entire world) while the USA does have the highest Gini coefficient (measurement of inequality) of any western country barring South Africa and I would dispute whether South Africa falls into the arbitrary category of a Western country.

On Rockies request I will not take this thread off on a tangent about the relationship between poverty and crime since the original point is a worthy topic for discussion among American citizens despite they way I object to it being phrased as a wedge issue and the call to enforce it upon the rest of the worlds societies, which is what I believe sparked the outrage among European posters. I am fully aware of the counter arguments to my above comment relating to the Gini coefficient i.e. “poverty does not equal inequality,” Where I would probably end up replying they are one and the same in my eyes when the disparity is so vast and then quote some figure that I suspect the poster respects. Since in this case it would probably be a conservative American, I would invariable end up quoting the line “all men are created equal” from the US constitution or if I had cause to be more vindictive a quote from the Bible about the meek or greed. This would then lead to either a heated philosophical argument backed by plenty of inconclusive statistics or simply a slugging match of abuse. So………..rather than wasting time going through all that, where neither I nor the person/s who argues with me are likely to change our views on an internet forum and waste the original point of this thread, let’s just move on.

As for my comments about Glasgow/Johannesburg those are not my own but the official position of the Strathclyde police force. I should point out that there are other factors at play in Glasgow other than just poverty at work such as the unique position of Celtic and Rangers footballs that frequently re-enact scenes more benefiting of clashes between IRA and the UDF in Northern Ireland, than a sporting event.

 

 

My posts had 3 veiled meanings besides the implications of poverty on crime, which no one has really addressed.

1) What is the most powerful weapon you can currently obtain

 
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paul1970       9/6/2007 3:22:14 AM

I have to go with the chaps from the US on this.
Tighter firearms laws do not necessarily mean a decrease on the criminal use of guns.

Certainly in the UK, since the banning of handguns, the number of crimes involving handguns has increased for a given unit of time. So clearly it hasn't worked as intended. One might argue that the number of handgun crimes might have gone up more had the ban not been enacted, but that would be difficult to prove.

As for why I would wish to own a firearm (for the record I do not, currently) is that I like target shooting. The focus and discipline of it appeal to me.
would you kindly post your references for this?

according to the radio this morning you are wrong. gun crime in the UK is down. there is certainly more reporting of it currently due to the recent spate of "gang" related shootings.
 
Paul

 
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