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Subject: USA #1 in arms ownership! Makes you feel Proud!
RockyMTNClimber    8/28/2007 6:02:37 PM
The right of self defense is universal. UN should mandate all nations allow their citizens access to gun ownership! Check Six Rocky ht**tp://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2007-08-28T174254Z_01_L28348938_RTRUKOC_0_US-WORLD-FIREARMS.xml&pageNumber=0&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage2 By Laura MacInnis GENEVA (Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a report released on Tuesday said. U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies. About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year are purchased in the United States, it said. "There is roughly one firearm for every seven people worldwide. Without the United States, though, this drops to about one firearm per 10 people," it said. India had the world's second-largest civilian gun arsenal, with an estimated 46 million firearms outside law enforcement and the military, though this represented just four guns per 100 people there. China, ranked third with 40 million privately held guns, had 3 firearms per 100 people. Germany, France, Pakistan, Mexico, Brazil and Russia were next in the ranking of country's overall civilian gun arsenals. On a per-capita basis, Yemen had the second most heavily armed citizenry behind the United States, with 61 guns per 100 people, followed by Finland with 56, Switzerland with 46, Iraq with 39 and Serbia with 38. Continued... France, Canada, Sweden, Austria and Germany were next, each with about 30 guns per 100 people, while many poorer countries often associated with violence ranked much lower. Nigeria, for instance, had just one gun per 100 people. "Firearms are very unevenly distributed around the world. The image we have of certain regions such as Africa or Latin America being awash with weapons -- these images are certainly misleading," Small Arms Survey director Keith Krause said. "Weapons ownership may be correlated with rising levels of wealth, and that means we need to think about future demand in parts of the world where economic growth is giving people larger disposable income," he told a Geneva news conference. The report, which relied on government data, surveys and media reports to estimate the size of world arsenals, estimated there were 650 million civilian firearms worldwide, and 225 million held by law enforcement and military forces. Five years ago, the Small Arms Survey had estimated there were a total of just 640 million firearms globally. "Civilian holdings of weapons worldwide are much larger than we previously believed," Krause said, attributing the increase largely to better research and more data on weapon distribution networks. Only about 12 percent of civilian weapons are thought to be registered with authorities.
 
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flamingknives       9/6/2007 4:10:44 PM
Herald. 

AFAIK, the British right to bear arms is still in effect. The original wording was something along the lines of:
"A protestant man may possess weapons with which to defend his home, such as are permitted by law"

Obviously that last caveat is important, but it isn't so very different to the US. (Machine guns and anti-tank rockets?)

I don't know how far back proportionate force in self-defence goes, but it seems like one of those laws rooted in antiquity.
 
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paul1970       9/6/2007 4:23:17 PM






Rocky, your UK example is a little bit off.





It's been nearly forty years since it was legal to hold a firearm for the purpose of self-defence in the UK.





I think my analysis is accurate. Attached is one of many studies showing that the banning of handguns in UK all together did nothing. In fact your crime rates have gone up. Including violent crimes.



Check Six



 



Rocky




ht***tp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm
Monday, 16 July, 2001, 04:50 GMT 05:50 UK



Handgun crime 'up' despite ban




Handgunhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1440000/images/_1440764_hand.300.jpg" width=300 border=0>


Handguns were banned following the Dunblane massacre






A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.

The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.

The ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997 as a result of the Dunblane massacre, when Thomas Hamilton opened fire at a primary school leaving 16 children and their teacher dead.

The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000.

It also said there was no link between high levels of gun crime and areas where there were still high levels of lawful gun possession.

Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime.

And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average.

Smuggling

The campaign's director, David Bredin, said: "It is crystal clear from the research that the existing gun laws do not lead to crime reduction and a safer place.

"Policy makers have targeted the legitimate sporting and farming communities with ever-tighter laws but the research clearly demonstrates that it is illegal guns which are the real threat to public safety."

He said the rise was largely down to successful smuggling of illegal guns into the country.

Weapons have even been disguised as key rings no larger than a matchbox to get them in, he said.

Other sources of guns include battlefield trophies brought back by soldiers, the illegal conversion of replica firearms including blank firing pistols and the reactivation of weapons which had been deactivated.

Ammunition

Examples of illegally manufactured guns include screwdrivers being adapted to fire off one round, he said.

The Metropolitan Police said its official figures showed a 20% drop in armed robberies of commercial premises between April and July this year, compared with the same period last year.

A Scotland Yard spokesman said that, since April 2001, the Flying Squad has arrested 39 people in connection with 34 armed incidents and seized 52 weapons.

Operation Trident, which investigates "black on black" shootings in the UK, has made more than 300 arrests, recovered 100 firearms and 1,500 rounds of ammunition since it was established a year ago.

The Home Office said measures were being taken to tackle handgun crime, including an intensified effort against illegally smuggled weapons.

 







It helps if y
 
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paul1970       9/6/2007 4:32:35 PM






I have to go with the chaps from the US on this.

Tighter firearms laws do not necessarily mean a decrease on the criminal use of guns.







Certainly in the UK, since the banning of handguns, the number of crimes involving handguns has increased for a given unit of time. So clearly it hasn't worked as intended. One might argue that the number of handgun crimes might have gone up more had the ban not been enacted, but that would be difficult to prove.







As for why I would wish to own a firearm (for the record I do not, currently) is that I like target shooting. The focus and discipline of it appeal to me.




it certainly helps get rid of the "guy goes nuts and shoots a load of people" type crime that happens every few years... (Dunblaine, Hungerford). without guns these people who flip don't have the guns to do it in the first place... but we do have a rise in "crazed attack with samurai sword..." I am happy with laws that reduce guns in the hands of people who should't have them.



as for criminals.... they are criminals... if they want a gun to commit a crime then they will get one... but I am happy that they find it harder to get hold of one now....



 the recent troubles in the UK has been mainly gang related and not "professional criminals".



the use of guns by "professional criminals" is pretty static. but will increase if they percieve that they need one to do the job... hence...  if corner shop owners were armed than all corner shop robbers would need guns....



 now this may not be valid for the US because you have already gone too far (I have not thought of a good idea for the US that wwould work) but please bare in mind that different countries have different needs. and increasing gun ownership might be "obvious" to some in the US who see this as the only viable option. but in other countries we have time to stop this "obvious need" from needing to occur.



 Paul


explain what you mean by "already gone too far"? toward what? toward having armed citizens?what are you trying to say?
 

Also, explain what you mean by "only viable option"? for dealing with what? because of what situation?


 

Innuendo is useless. Take a stand.


as in having too many guns in the hands of criminals and a large death by firearm rate.... so it maybe too late to try alternative methods of reducing the deaths....
 
usual comparisons are per 100000 and the USA tends to be very high (if not top???) but cannot find figures for last couple of years.... comparative years for US and UK are nearly 10 years old (and not available to me on this machine, will post tommorow) and UK has probably got worse since then.
 
Paul
 
Paul

 
 
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paul1970       9/6/2007 4:34:52 PM

paul1970:

You ask for sources, here is one from the Home Office:

h*tp://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hosb0206.pdf

Most interesting is the graph at the bottom of page 77 showing the number of crimes involving firearms. If we go from 1997/8, we see that that the use of firearms in burglary and violence against the person have been increasing at a marginal rate, use in criminal damage has been increasing more rapidly but has recently fallen off and use in robberies has fallen markedly.

By 2002, we see the following trends:
Use of firearms for violence against a person and criminal damage rockets - by 2002, number of incidents has nearly doubled. Use of firearms in robberies has rebounded to more than they have been in the four years prior to the gun ban.
Burglaries have seen the same slow, steady increase.

If we skip on to 2005, violence against a person and criminal damage have leveled off, with criminal damage falling slightly, but both are still almost twice their levels in 1997 and more than twice the 1992 levels.
Robberies are dropping significant and burglaries have fallen by as much as they have changed in any other two years.

Criminal damage can be largely ignored as it involves air weapons on more than a 10:1 ratio.
Violence against a person, however, cannot be discounted in such a matter and there you have it.

will look at this one tommorow from work
cheers
Paul
 
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paul1970       9/6/2007 4:43:50 PM

 

Frankly it looks like the UK is doing what we did in the US 30 years ago. Took away victim rights and blamed everything but the bad guys. Allot of that "poverty causes crime" trash back then. We throw them in jail and leave them there now in the US.

 

That is what prevents crimes.

 

Check Six

 

Rocky

 

 

 


 




 












  • now here we agree.....
    the UK is far too lenient on the criminal and does not back up the victim..... (I did Quantum prison rollout and you would not belive the crap with sex offenders and the risk assesment charts they go through to see if they can be released....  grrrrhhhh)
     
    I am all for increasing prison spaces (happy to double it and stick them on the Scotish isles... they need the jobs...   :-)  ), making it bloody harder while in there, longer sentences and throw away the bloody key for the really bad guys....
     
    see, I am not a "liberal", I am right wing UK......    but letting everyone have guns will only lead to more gun crime.....
     
    Paul
     
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    RockyMTNClimber    The data was and continues to be valid, read the other supporting posts paul!   9/6/2007 4:48:26 PM










    Rocky, your UK example is a little bit off.








    It's been nearly forty years since it was legal to hold a firearm for the purpose of self-defence in the UK.








    I think my analysis is accurate. Attached is one of many studies showing that the banning of handguns in UK all together did nothing. In fact your crime rates have gone up. Including violent crimes.





    Check Six





     





    Rocky






    ht***tp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm
    Monday, 16 July, 2001, 04:50 GMT 05:50 UK





    Handgun crime 'up' despite ban






    Handgunhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1440000/images/_1440764_hand.300.jpg" width=300 border=0>



    Handguns were banned following the Dunblane massacre









    A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.


    The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.


    The ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997 as a result of the Dunblane massacre, when Thomas Hamilton opened fire at a primary school leaving 16 children and their teacher dead.


    The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000.


    It also said there was no link between high levels of gun crime and areas where there were still high levels of lawful gun possession.


    Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime.


    And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average.


    Smuggling


    The campaign's director, David Bredin, said: "It is crystal clear from the research that the existing gun laws do not lead to crime reduction and a safer place.


    "Policy makers have targeted the legitimate sporting and farming communities with ever-tighter laws but the research clearly demonstrates that it is illegal guns which are the real threat to public safety."


    He said the rise was largely down to successful smuggling of illegal guns into the country.


    Weapons have even been disguised as key rings no larger than a matchbox to get them in, he said.


    Other sources of guns include battlefield trophies brought back by soldiers, the illegal conversion of replica firearms including blank firing pistols and the reactivation of weapons which had been deactivated.


    Ammunition


    Examples of illegally manufactured guns include screwdrivers being adapted to fire off one round, he said.


    The Metropolitan Police said its official figures showed a 20% drop in armed robberies of commercial premises between April and July this year, compared with the same period last year.


    A Scotland Yard spokesman said that, since April 2001, the Flying Squad has arrested 39 people in connection with 34 armed incidents and seized 52 weapons.


    Operation Trident, whi

     
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    paul1970       9/6/2007 4:55:29 PM

     

    UK seems to have difficulty counting its crime victims................

     

     




    again... will have to wait for tommorow to check this....   but this is the opposition picking on the government (I am conservative so happy for them to pin labour on everything they can) and so will cherry pick to try and make Labour look bad... (which they are...   :-)  )
    also.... I suspect that all governments spin stories for their own good so I expect that all governments downplay their own stats by a similar margin..... and so if our official stats are off by so much then no doubt so are everyone elses...  
     
    from a personal view.... it seems more dangerous out on the streets than it was 15 years ago no matter what our goverment says and how many statistics they trawl out to say we are safer than years past... ( a damn lot of low level crime is not reported..)..  but perhaps I am just getting old...    :-)...   
     
    personal experience....    broken into twice.....   10 years ago.... police came did foresics, never heard anything after that.... 5 years ago... didn't bother to even come out and just gave us a crime number to give to insurance company.....)
    no I am not happy with level of service..... more tax money for police, more tax money for prisons.... but that means more government tax.... but if that was what the money was ringfenced for then it gets my vote.
     
     
    Paul

     
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    flamingknives       9/6/2007 5:06:12 PM
    Rocky: would it kill you to not include the whole thread in your replies? It makes scrolling through the thread a real PITA.

    Paul:

    The stats may be down on last year, but I rather suspect that they are still significantly up on the mid-nineties.


    Incidently, I don't know if this has been mentioned (and I'm not going to look for it, and I'm looking at Rocky for the reason why :-p) but the Dunblane murderer would have had his firearms certificate revoked, on the recommendation of his shooting club, but he played golf with the chief constable or something. If it wasn't for the corrupt police, his guns would have been taken and the sorry mess would not have happened.
     
    Quote    Reply

    paul1970       9/6/2007 5:14:45 PM





    UK has a problem with crime paul. You all should go back to the old rules & get your crime down where it belongs. Prior to gun control in UK early in the last century your armed robbery rate was just a handful a year. Now you are looking at continuous increases!

    I find it odd that UK does not count unsolved crimes in their statistics! They don't get into your statistics until they are resolved. That is one way to stop crime, don't report it as such. Too funny.

     

    Check Six

     

    Rocky

    I agree.... we should get crime down....
    but crime is not up because we have less legally owned guns..... the places being robbed by armed robbers didn't have guns before the ban so the ban is largely irrelevent....
     
     
    as for your last.... UK not counting unsolved crime in statistics.... I must have missed something here.....where is this from? firearm murders are counted whether solved or not...... ie the boy shot and murdered last month and buried today is certainly counted as a firearm death. who is saying this is not counted????
     
    we are a relatively small country... if someone is shot then it is on our national news.... if someone dies from a firearm then it plays in the papers and tv for days. if the police shoot someone there are suspensions and special enquiries into why it happened.......  firearm deaths are not that common in the UK that they don't warrant being commented on and being the story....
     
     
    Paul

     
    Quote    Reply

    paul1970       9/6/2007 5:26:45 PM

    Rocky: would it kill you to not include the whole thread in your replies? It makes scrolling through the thread a real PITA.

    Paul:

    The stats may be down on last year, but I rather suspect that they are still significantly up on the mid-nineties.


    Incidently, I don't know if this has been mentioned (and I'm not going to look for it, and I'm looking at Rocky for the reason why :-p) but the Dunblane murderer would have had his firearms certificate revoked, on the recommendation of his shooting club, but he played golf with the chief constable or something. If it wasn't for the corrupt police, his guns would have been taken and the sorry mess would not have happened.
    they maybe up but that does not mean that you should give everyone a gun to combat it.... more guns means more gun crime and more gun deaths....
     
    as for Dunblane... well if they had banned them after Hungerford........       :-)       how many gun rampages do you need before it is realised that getting rid of guns is a good idea...?
     
    Paul
     
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