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Subject: Global Strike Tactical Weapon
Softwar    6/19/2007 8:39:16 AM
Aviation Week, June 18 2007, page 49 - Northrup Grumman has been contracted to design a weapon - using the Minotaur launch vehicle and an unspecified delivery device - that can destroy targets at a global range in less than an hour's flight time. The submunitions are to be a number of BLU-108B/B sensor-fused weapons that use an active laser sensor, multimission warhead and large footprint for searching out targets. Each submunition is to carry four explosively formed penetrator projectiles that can detect a vehicle's shape and heat signature. It also can provide direct attack capabilities against command and control centers.
 
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Carl D.       7/24/2007 7:19:56 PM
Here's something I just came across..http://www.atk.com/Customer_Solutions_LaunchSystems/cs_ls_m_fbcs.asp

Forward-Based Conventional Strike

The U.S. Strategic Command has identified a requirement for the rapid fielding of a new, long-range, prompt conventional strike capability against time-sensitive, high-value targets.

ATK Launch Systems is leading a team that includes Textron, Draper Laboratory, and Honeywell to meet this emerging requirement. The FBCS concept proposed by the team will provide a conventional, land-based, penetrating long-range strike capability that will give the National Command Authority a means to attack fixed, hard and deeply buried, mobile and re-locatable targets with improved accuracy anywhere in the world.

The concept is focused on four key tasks:

  • Integration of highly accurate guidance systems for the launch vehicle and weapon.
  • Packaging and delivery of conventional weapons capabilities.
  • Integration of responsible mobile range safety with operational launch command and control.
  • Demonstration of flight hardware.

 
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Nichevo    KE Mini-MARVs!   7/24/2007 7:45:34 PM
Skeets?  Braking??  What are you guys talking about?!?!?

If you have say 1000 kg payload...stuff the damned thing with lengths of rebar!  With GPS and/or some kind of sensor/datalink, vanes or thrusters, and perhaps some aerogel to keep them from melting too fast if desired, or ablative mushroom heads.  What is this braking jazz? 

KE, baby, KE!  Who needs explosive when you're hitting something with a steel/hi-alloy steel/tungsten/DU/osmium/? rod with enormous sectional density striking at cosmic speeds - who cares for explosives or SFF?  Dead weight.

There are a lot of smart guys here.  I must be missing something but that seems the natural.  If each weighed 10kgs - and obviously they could be "cut to fit" - you have a hundred strikes.  Of course for a really big, hard, deep target you could have a single telephone pole-sized penetrator. 

Bingo, done.  Now you just have to convince the Russkies that it ain't a decapitation strike.

I think Jerry Pournelle looked into something like this, at the phone-pole end of the scale, back in maybe the 60s?  Project THOR?  I think he was thinking of orbital platforms just dropping these, which would also be cool.

 
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Carl D.       7/24/2007 11:25:36 PM

Skeets?  Braking??  What are you guys talking about?!?!?

If you have say 1000 kg payload...stuff the damned thing with lengths of rebar!  With GPS and/or some kind of sensor/datalink, vanes or thrusters, and perhaps some aerogel to keep them from melting too fast if desired, or ablative mushroom heads.  What is this braking jazz? 

KE, baby, KE!  Who needs explosive when you're hitting something with a steel/hi-alloy steel/tungsten/DU/osmium/? rod with enormous sectional density striking at cosmic speeds - who cares for explosives or SFF?  Dead weight.

There are a lot of smart guys here.  I must be missing something but that seems the natural.  If each weighed 10kgs - and obviously they could be "cut to fit" - you have a hundred strikes.  Of course for a really big, hard, deep target you could have a single telephone pole-sized penetrator. 

Bingo, done.  Now you just have to convince the Russkies that it ain't a decapitation strike.

I think Jerry Pournelle looked into something like this, at the phone-pole end of the scale, back in maybe the 60s?  Project THOR?  I think he was thinking of orbital platforms just dropping these, which would also be cool.

Your correct about the system, also known as "Rods of God".  In an article from NewsMax.com from 29 June 2007, U.S. Develops New Weapons, by Charles R. Smith, speaks about the BLU-108 armed system as well as KE weapons, RATTLRS and Super-Tomahawk.  There was also a proposal in the late 70's early 80's to use old Polaris or Poseidon missiles, as Trident came on line, in a ground launched form armed with CBUs or flechettes to attack Warsaw Pact/Soviet troop concentration/staging areas, bottlenecks, logistic support, C4I and airfields.  Similar mission and method to what's being discussed.



 
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Herald1234    Stability.   7/24/2007 11:35:45 PM
How stable is a 4000 mps lawn dart?

Herald

 
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doggtag    Wasn't this argument made before, Herald?   7/25/2007 12:42:13 PM

How stable is a 4000 mps lawn dart?

Herald

If the Sprint ABM was able to be controlled and maneuvered going up at phenomenal speeds,
and Space Shuttles can reenter the atmosphere at phenomenal speeds coming down yet still be manually flown if necessary (even to the point of slowing down from 16,000+mph orbital speeds to more atmospheric-friendly supersonic, then subsonic speeds),
why then is it hard to fathom stability in some giant lawn dart launched from orbit (or even suborbit/very high altitude)?
Surely with the proper aerodynamic design, a kinetic MaRV (Maneuvering Reentry Vehicle) should be achievable, that can adjust (within reason) its intended impact point?
I'm not suggesting it'll be steerable enough to go after combat aircraft,
but large ships, and especially any fixed ground installations, should be a cake walk to target and strike precise enough to cause considerable damage.
 
(my brain going into lazy mode now just past lunch, anyone have the on-target energy release of even a 10kg solid penetrator striking something like concrete or such at >Mach 10 velocities?)
 
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Nichevo    Short answer: 10x KE of a 1200mm APFSDS sabot   7/25/2007 9:04:45 PM



How stable is a 4000 mps lawn dart?

Herald


How stable is APFSDS?  I am skeptical this cannot be managed.


If the Sprint ABM was able to be controlled and maneuvered going up at phenomenal speeds,

and Space Shuttles can reenter the atmosphere at phenomenal speeds coming down yet still be manually flown if necessary (even to the point of slowing down from 16,000+mph orbital speeds to more atmospheric-friendly supersonic, then subsonic speeds),

why then is it hard to fathom stability in some giant lawn dart launched from orbit (or even suborbit/very high altitude)?

Surely with the proper aerodynamic design, a kinetic MaRV (Maneuvering Reentry Vehicle) should be achievable, that can adjust (within reason) its intended impact point?

I'm not suggesting it'll be steerable enough to go after combat aircraft,

but large ships, and especially any fixed ground installations, should be a cake walk to target and strike precise enough to cause considerable damage.

 

(my brain going into lazy mode now just past lunch, anyone have the on-target energy release of even a 10kg solid penetrator striking something like concrete or such at >Mach 10 velocities?)

KE=1/2 mv^2

= .5 * 10kg * 3400 * 3400 (STP)
= 57,800,000 Joules

For comparison: (using someone else's numbers, http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/10/extrasuper_serious_geek_alert.html h-ttp://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2004/10/extrasuper_serious_geek_alert.html)

.45 ACP = 619 J
Apache's M230 automatic gun ammunition (30mm)  = 112,160 J
A-10 GAU-8 DU ammo (30mm) - KE = 1,023,750 J


M829 APFSDS-T 120mm round (http://www.frfrogspad.com/power.htm, h-ttp://www.frfrogspad.com/power.htm):
It throws a 9.41 pound (that's 65,870 grains), 1.06" diameter, 31" long, depleted uranium dart at 5480 f/s from the 120mm M256 smooth-bore tank canon on the M1A1 and M1A2 tanks.
...
Lets see now -- KE (ft lbs) = (W * V²) / 450240. That gives us (65,870 * 5480 * 5480) / 450436 which boils down to (hold on to your hats!) 4,391,500 foot pounds (that's right 4.3 MILLION ft lbs). Sectional Density = W (in pounds)/D². That gives us 9.41 / .6 * .6 which equals 8.4. (That's eight point four--and you thought your 220gr .30 cal bullet had high sectional density at .343 (that's "point" 343.)  The newer M829A2 round throws a 10.85 pound , .8" dart at 5512 f/s.  I'll leave it to you to figure out the details.

9.41lb=  4.2714 kg
5480 fps=   1671 m/s
.5* 4.2714 * 1671 * 1671
=5,963,456 J

or the new:

.5 * 4.925kg * 1680 *1680
=6,950,160 J

Some (http://www.defense-update.com/products/digits/120ke.htm, h-ttp://www.defense-update.com/products/digits/120ke.htm) cite the velocities at up to ~1750 m/s, a minor difference; consider also this is KE of the penetrator, the sabot adds mass and the total generated by the gun is higher.  Maybe total 10kg at 1500-1750m/s.


So the 120MM sabot round is giving you 6-7 MJ.  This orbital penetrator is going about ten times that.

(NB:  The 140mm gun, to which the M1 can go if 120mm were outclassed, is supposed to go you 2-3x the KE of the 120mm.  Big whoop.)

You should be able to super-mega-death-kill-Brooklyn stomp 100 of the meanest tanks that ever lived with one THOR shot. 

Given that it would be a top attack, you might go with 1000 1kg mini-penetrators, if they would endure re-entry, and have KE merely equal to 1000 of the 120mm sabots.
 
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bwawawawa    BLU-1/B was a 340 kg (750 lb) class fire bomb, filled with about 340-380 liters (90-100 US gal) of napalm   8/16/2007 3:15:28 PM
Yikes! The BLU-1/B was a 340 kg (750 lb) class fire bomb, filled with about 340-380 liters (90-100 US gal) of napalm. Other than the BLU-1/B, which was filled in the field, the BLU-1B/B was filled in the factory. There was also a BLU-1C/B version, for which no details are available. The BLU-27( )/B series was similar to the BLU-1( )/B, but was filled with the heavier Napalm-B mixture. Data for BLU-1/B: Length: 3.30 m (10.8 ft) Diameter: 47.0 cm (18.5 in) Explosive: 260-290 kg / 340-380 l (575-640 lb / 90-100 US gal) napalm
 
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Herald1234    That 80 MJ 10 kg slug travelling at 4000 mps.   8/16/2007 3:49:38 PM
Ahmmmmmm.
 
Let's ask how much time you have to slam through the densest 100,000 meters of the earth's atmosphere at the slant trying to hit a ship and maneuver to correct lead? As a rough mean we will arbitrarily describe the interval you cover in the last segment of the parabola as about 142,000 to 180,000 meters as you plunge between 45 degrees inclination and 60 dgrees inclination at the slant.
 
Mister Bernoulli will make a minor appearance but ignore him.
 
35 seconds to 45 seconds to track lead a ship moving at 10 meters per second....................350 meters to 450 meters offset lead.
 
It isn't that simple. Your slugn will be molten by the time it reaches the ship. It will also likely vaporize or EXPLODE in the upper atmosphere if it doesn't tumble.
 
You see RVs are designed to dynamically handle re-entry deceleration forces so they have DECELERATING force handling aeroshell lifting shapes-even the pointed ones.
 
Herald
 
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Softwar       8/16/2007 4:00:53 PM

Yikes!

The BLU-1/B was a 340 kg (750 lb) class fire bomb, filled with about 340-380 liters (90-100 US gal) of napalm. Other than the BLU-1/B, which was filled in the field, the BLU-1B/B was filled in the factory. There was also a BLU-1C/B version, for which no details are available. The BLU-27( )/B series was similar to the BLU-1( )/B, but was filled with the heavier Napalm-B mixture.

Data for BLU-1/B:
Length: 3.30 m (10.8 ft)
Diameter: 47.0 cm (18.5 in)
Explosive: 260-290 kg / 340-380 l (575-640 lb / 90-100 US gal) napalm

The proposed weapon was the blu-108

LINK

BLU-108/B Submunition
The BLU-108/B submunition is currently produced for the SFW (NSN 1325-01-8801), a wide-area munition in the 1000-pound class. The BLU-108/B submunition weighs approximately 60 pounds, contains four warheads, and orientation and stabilization system, a radar altimeter, and a rocket motor. Each warhead fires an explosively-formed projectile triggered by a two-color infrared sensor. At a preset altitude sensed by a radar altimeter, a rocket motor fires to spin the submunition and initiate an ascent. The submunition then releases its four projectiles, which are lofted over the target area. The projectile's sensor detects a vehicle's infrared signature, and an explosively formed penetrator fires at the heat source. If no target is detected after a period of time, the projectiles automatically after a preset time interval, causing damage to material and personnel.

The BLU-108 sensor fuzed submunition was developed by the U.S. Air Force in partnership with Textron Systems as part of the Sensor Fuzed Weapon (SFW) air-to-ground strike munition. The proven efficiency and continued product enhancements have also made BLU-108 the submunition of choice for the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy AGM-154B Joint StandOff Weapon (JSOW). The SFW, with its versatility, lethality and redundant self-destruct features, make it the weapon of choice for the 21st century war fighter.

In production since 1992, the original baseline BLU-108, as part of the Sensor Fuzed Weapon, has exceeded U.S. Air Force lethality requirements. More than 200 live tests have demonstrated the effectiveness of the SFW and BLU-108 in defeating a variety of combat vehicles.

The BLU-108 contains 4 smart Skeet warheads. The Skeet's Explosively Formed Penetrator (EFP) is the lethal component of the warhead. The one pound copper EFP, moving at hypersonic speeds, performs a kinetic energy kill of the target, thus minimizing collateral damage.

Today's improved Skeet warhead incorporates a fragmentation ring to defeat soft targets and their ancillary equipment. The Skeet's center core projectile is designed to defeat heavy armored vehicles. Effective against both hard and soft targets, the BLU-108 target set includes:

Main battle tanks
Mobile missile launchers
Air defense sites
Parked aircraft
Armored personnel carriers
Littoral targets
Redundant self-destruct functions designed into each Skeet warhead allow for clean battlefield operation.

Each Skeet has two built-in self-destruct features to help reduce the risk of unexploded ordnance being left on the battlefield. A timeout feature instructs the Skeet to self-destruct within seconds if a valid target has not been detected. An altitude feature causes detonation to happen a short distance above the ground. These important features significantly reduce the potential for unexploded ordnance on the battlefield-an issue for many older submunition products.

Unlike older, traditional "cluster" weapons, each Skeet warhead features built-in, redundant, self-destruct logic. If the Skeet warhead does not detect a valid target over its lofted trajectory, it will self destruct. Each warhead also contains a timed self-deactivation mode which denies explosive activation should the self-destruct feature not occur. These safety features minimize post air strike hazards to non-combatants and civilians.

The BLU-108 is capable of integration into a number of weapon systems:

BQM-109 Tomahawk, Raytheon Systems
SM-2 Land Attack STANDARD Missile, Raytheon Systems
MGM-140 Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS). Lockheed Martin
AGM-84H Standoff Land Attack Missile - Expanded Response (SLAMER), Boeing
AGM-158 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff

 
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Wicked Chinchilla       8/20/2007 11:41:54 AM
It sounds like an excellent concept but there is a political implication: how will Nuclear nations such as Russia be able to figure out we arent launching a nuke?  I realize it wouldnt be an issue unless the trajectory looks to over fly there territory, but they are right next to Afghanistan, N.Korea, and Iran...I would imagine even a close trajectory would make them nervous.  It sure would make me nervous at any rate. 
 
Is there some kind of under-the-table cooperation going to be taking place (IE, call on red phone "we are launching minotaur:), or are we just going to launch and figure they trust us?
 
Or, is there someway we can configure the launch signature so as to make them know from first detection its not a nuke?
 
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