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Subject: Never Submit
RockyMTNClimber    4/17/2007 11:36:57 AM
Would a 9-11 type hijacking work today? No, because if someone jumped up with a knife and tried to hijack a plane, the passengers would swarm the bastard and beat him to a pulp. In fact the "shoe bomber" was detained that way. Starting from day one we should teach aggressive defense techniques not passive-submissive responses to threats. If everyone in a lecture hall throws their books,backpacks,shoes,laptops,chairs,and desks at a threat, he will have a tough time with his marksmanship. He could then be swarmed and dispatched. This needs to be taught early and often. If the first class the Virginia Tech shooter attacked had responded this way he probably would have hit several people but not made it much further. Teach response not submission. Check Six Rocky
 
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Jeff_F_F       4/22/2007 9:31:51 AM
Good point about federal laws. Okay, two problems.
 
As to teaching response, I can't agree more.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    University Guns   4/22/2007 11:53:26 AM



The other problem is that all college campuses forbid their students carrying guns. It should at least be permitted with a valid concealed carry permit.




I certainly agree with that.  Of course most college students would not be able to obtain one, since federal law prohibits ownership or possession of a handgun or even just handgun ammunition by anyone under 21 years old.


 


There certainly are teachers and administrators whom are willing to pass the appropriate back grounds and even take training (like our airline pilots). I have a close friend who teaches law at a major Colorado university and he is properly licensed with his retirement CCW. They won't let him carry. In fact they are livid about having to allow officers whom instruct on campus and are currently employed as officers must carry all of the time, including when on campus (most US Law Enforcement are required by their agency to carry when off duty).
 
The seem to prefer death to defense. It is crazy.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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theBird       4/24/2007 1:40:22 AM
I am suprised that there hasn't been a call for CCW on Campus.  The video images of two overweight campus cops peering out from behind the same tree until the shooting stopped should  be proof enough that the police can't always help you.
 
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buzzard       4/26/2007 2:44:53 PM



The other problem is that all college campuses forbid their students carrying guns. It should at least be permitted with a valid concealed carry permit.




I certainly agree with that.  Of course most college students would not be able to obtain one, since federal law prohibits ownership or possession of a handgun or even just handgun ammunition by anyone under 21 years old.


 

Va Tech has plenty of graduate students no doubt. Back when I was in grad school there were a good number of us with CCWs. I believe I wasn't supposed to carry on campus (not that I would admit to having done so, wink wink).

buzzard

 
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andyf    flight 93   4/27/2007 7:00:10 PM
now those guys meet the criterion of hero.
they knew they were likely to die,m and they still did it
they need statues
I salute those heroes
 
 
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GOP       4/27/2007 10:13:34 PM



The other problem is that all college campuses forbid their students carrying guns. It should at least be permitted with a valid concealed carry permit.




I certainly agree with that.  Of course most college students would not be able to obtain one, since federal law prohibits ownership or possession of a handgun or even just handgun ammunition by anyone under 21 years old.


 



In my state it is 18...so unsure of the Federal law you are reffering to..
 
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BasinBictory       4/30/2007 3:34:50 AM

Starting from day one we should teach aggressive defense techniques not passive-submissive responses to threats. If everyone in a lecture hall throws their books,backpacks,shoes,laptops,chairs,and desks at a threat, he will have a tough time with his marksmanship. He could then be swarmed and dispatched. This needs to be taught early and often. If the first class the Virginia Tech shooter attacked had responded this way he probably would have hit several people but not made it much further.

Teach response not submission.

Check Six

Rocky
Well Rocky, it's an interesting premise, and I agree with you, but you seriously think this will happen? Our standard, Mark I Human Nature Survival Instinct Protocol is pretty difficult programming to defeat. In the face of danger, your human reaction is to get as far away from it as you can. That is why you see people jump from burning buildings, even though they know, intellectually anyway, that the fall could kill them just as easily as the fire. If the Virginia Tech shooting happened on say, the 10th floor of a campus building, you'd still see students jumping from windows, even to their deaths.

As to whether a 9-11 style hikacking would work today? I still think, yes. Unfortunately. Assuming there's no armed Air Marshal aboard the plane, think about it from the hijackers' perspective. You (and several of your  buddies) manage to take control of the cockpit, and maintain control through the holding of hostage(s), preferably women or better yet, children. You assure the passengers that you have no intention of crashing the plane, and that everybody will be okay as long as nobody gets out of line. If some tough-guy tries something, you respond forcefully (by killing that guy and probably a hostage) and then angrily admonshing the rest of the passengers that this idiot got the poor lady (or child) killed, and that any further attempts at nonsense will get other people killed. You continue to intimidate individual passengers, perhaps seeking out those men who look strong or inclined to action by threatening their seat neighbors (again, preferably the women or children), and you can probably manage to keep a whole lot of people in line. the typical passengers on a plane are all strangers to one another, and not highly likely to sacrifice for one another, especially if you've successfully played them against each other (i.e. "if you do something, buddy - your neighbor's kid is gonna get it!")
 
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