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Subject: Beretta CX4 Storm
GOP    3/21/2007 3:07:27 PM
Whatsup guys? Sorry for asking another civilian gun question, I know this is a military site and not meant for asking a bunch of civilian related weapon questions. Anyway, as some of you read in my ".357 stopping power" thread, I've been looking for a pistol. I was talking to my Dad alot about it, and it's clear to me that he doesn't really want me to own a pistol until I'm 18 and can legally buy it (I'm from AL and can buy and carry at 18, according to the laws I've read online). Now, he didn't come out and say that "You can't have a pistol" or "I don't like the idea", but me and my Dad are very close and I can just tell he isn't real excited about me using a pistol. He has no problem whatsoever with me buying a long gun though (in his name of course). So, as we were talking, he told me one of his favorite pistols was a 9mm Beretta (I believe an M9? Like used in the military, and yes, I know of the problems with the magazines). He said he loves the way it felt in his hands, and was very high quality. That got me thinking to the time I went to a range/gunshop and got to use their Beretta CX4 storm. Nice little gun, very ergonomic and accurate in my opinion. Some of the thing I like about it is the fact that I could interchange the ammunition and possibly even the magazines (if I buy a Beretta) when I own my pistol, since it's a pistol caliber carbine. Also, it's very light, has picatinny (sp) rails built in for upgrades, and would work great for both plinking (primary use) and homedefense. What do you guys think about the gun? I may be overlooking something major that I haven't seen (magazine capacity could be an issue, which I'll get into next). Basically, it comes in 9mm Luger, .40 S&W, and .45 auto. Which would be the best for homedefense and plinking? I'm thinking .40, but in a homedefense scenario, I don't want the bullets penetrating the bad guy and going into walls where my family could be, and I've heard bad things about 9mm doing that (going through the target). Honestly never shot a .45 round, so not sure if it runs the same risk. Magazine capacity is basically like this (range from stock to hicap mags)...9mm (14-17); .40 (10-11); .45 (8). For plinking, mag capacity obviously doesn't matter, so in a home defense scenario, is that enough rounds? Just curious guys, thanks for any opionins and I apologize in advance if I shouldn't be asking questions like this on SP.
 
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Horsesoldier       3/23/2007 10:02:37 PM


Thanks alot for all of the info on how to deal with a possible attack, I copied and pasted that and saved it in word document so I can memorize the steps/process. Now, how loud would you typically yell these responses. Are you going for max intimidation, or are you going for slow, smooth words to have him completely under control? I remember watching a show on, none other than SQT (SEAL Qualifications Training), and they were telling them to yell extremely loud to intimidate and make it clear who is in control. I obviously make absolutely no case that I'm anywhere near as capable as those guys (I'm just an average guy from Alabama who loves guns), but just curious. I'd definitely comply with the police for sure, no need for "Why do I need to get on the ground, I'm the good guy!" stuff like you see on Cops...they have no clue who I am, all they know is I'm holding a gun.


The SEALs you saw training are going for intimidation -- one of the keys is to convince the other guy that he is about to die unless he is 100% compliant, and to overwhelm his senses.  Coming in shouting simple, easy to follow directions, while waving guns is kind of along the same lines as flash bangs and explosive breaching.  It's easier to accomplish that sensory overload/intimidation by starting out with the intensity knob turned up to 11 than by starting mellow and polite and escalating from there.
Normally I would say that general approach is not, necessarily, transferable to civilian self-defense for a number of reasons (i.e. take that route during a verbal altercation outside a bar and the police may deem you to be the one guilty of something), but having someone breaking into your house in the middle of the night is a scenario where maximum intimidation and threat of violence seems prudent and reasonable to me.
 

 
 
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ChdNorm       3/24/2007 1:06:44 AM
Horsesoldier, as usual, makes excellent points. You are trying to intimidate the hell out of them at the instinctual level. To me, it's like I mentioned with the different flashlight techniques out there ... it all comes down to what works best for you. There are text book responses that say that yes, you do overwhelm a subject that way. But like most things there are different correct answers to the same question. The key is becoming versatile enough to be able to employ the proper tactic to solve the particular situation at hand.
 
Me personally, it's just not in my personality to do a whole lot of yelling and screaming. For one thing (and this may sound kinda stupid), if I go to yell and scream ...  it tends to come out all girly and high pitched. Sorta like a 12 year old girl that's just seen a spider. Therefor, my yelling and screaming usually doesn't accomplish too much on the intimidation scale. Once again ... "A man's got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan. That's why I go for the loud booming kind of voice. Think of God issuing those commands to Moses ... and you get the idea.  I may raise my voice loud enough to be heard, but I maintain a calm demeanor with easily understood and clearly spoken commands. I have found that remaining calm and composed during any such encounter is just as intimidating as anything else, if not more. It definitely makes them wonder what you know that they don't.
 
Ultimately, they have to be scared of YOU ... not the gun you're holding on them.
 
On the Rogers/Surefire flashlight technique:
 
It's good that you are going to give the different ones a try and find what fits you the best. I only have two real qualms with the Rogers/Surefire method.
 
1. I shoot out of a strong Weaver, and the Rogers/Surefire really only works shooting out of an isosceles Therefor, it just doesn't "feel" right to me. What grip and stance do you shoot out of?
 
2. It is pretty much dependent on being properly equipped. With the Harries (or most of the others) you can do it with any old flashlight you might find rolling around in the floorboard. With the Rogers/Surefire method you will be dependent on having your Surefire 6Z (I think that's the one) in order to make it work. You have to have the little rubber thingy around the tube (how's that for bein all technical?) to pull the end cap switch back against your palm. Its just not versatile enough for me in that it isn't a transferable skill to anything but those properly equipped lights. If properly equipped though, it's a very good and serviceable technique (although not as adaptable to use with long guns). Learn some of the others as well, at least enough to be familiar with the basics of them.
 
I don't know of any worthwhile links on the different flashlight techniques available online, as I really don't get much information off the internet. I will do a search and see if I come up with anything I consider worth passing along though. A really good resource as far as books go is Massad Ayoob's "Stressfire" volumes I & II (I just looked and Amazon has them both available for $5.73 and $11.50 respectively). I cant remember which of them goes really in depth into the use of flashlights off the top of my head, but they're both good enough to buy and complimentary to each other.
 
While you're at it ... they also have Ayoob's "In the gravest extreme" for another $5.88. There's your $20 worth of Massad Ayoob books (plus shipping, handling, and any applicable sales taxes of course)

 
 
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Yimmy       3/24/2007 6:31:17 AM
I have only skim read the recent posts, however concerning the use of flash lights and screamed commands, I do not really agree.
 
In a "home-defence" scenario, given that it is your house, you know where the light switches are.  I think a jury may find it hard to understand why you shot that intruder you thought was armed, when you had a torch on him, as opposed to simply turning the light on for greater illumination.
 
As for screamed commands to intimidate the intruder, I think you would be far better off givng loud, clear commands, which are both easily understood, and which hopefully the neighbours will hear clearly (and so be able to tell the police you did warn the man, before you shot him seven times in the face...)
 
I don't think you can draw too many similarities betwen self defence in your home and military applications of force.
 
 
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Horsesoldier       3/24/2007 9:55:10 AM

I don't think you can draw too many similarities betwen self defence in your home and military applications of force.

That was exactly what the judge said after I fragged my living room and dining room in the process of, it turned out, capturing a racoon that infiltrated via the cat door . . .  

 
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Yimmy       3/24/2007 10:12:53 AM
Yes... but did you get the racoon?
 
 
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GOP       3/24/2007 10:43:14 AM




I don't think you can draw too many similarities betwen self defence in your home and military applications of force.



That was exactly what the judge said after I fragged my living room and dining room in the process of, it turned out, capturing a racoon that infiltrated via the cat door . . .  



You must be in MARSOC?
 
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ChdNorm       3/24/2007 11:52:10 AM
"In a "home-defence" scenario, given that it is your house, you know where the light switches are.  I think a jury may find it hard to understand why you shot that intruder you thought was armed, when you had a torch on him, as opposed to simply turning the light on for greater illumination." Yimmy
 
Admittedly, torches do offer some tactical advantages ... such as scaring off bats and the occasional dragon. However, due the the inherint danger of open flames in a CQB environment I still prefer a good flashlight.
 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Skunks are worse!   3/24/2007 11:57:22 AM




I don't think you can draw too many similarities betwen self defence in your home and military applications of force.



That was exactly what the judge said after I fragged my living room and dining room in the process of, it turned out, capturing a racoon that infiltrated via the cat door . . .  





 
 
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big-techie    Home Defense scenario   10/16/2008 7:21:40 AM
  IMHO three things to avoid in confrontation in "home defense" scenario.

House lights vs. flashlights. House lights will put you in the same situation as the intruder...waiting for your iris to adjust to sudden light change/blindness. Focused light of a flashlight causes intruder to be blinded, not you.

Two, shouting is not recommended as for the untrained and inexperienced it can cause a debilitating or distracting spike in your adrenalin. Have you ever walked into a dark room, "on edge" of fear and tried to yell? You have to fight through the fear, using adrenalin, to raise your voice. Also, if you are not aware of the number of intruders your yelling will add to your flashlight as a means for them to locate you and will also hinder your hearing their movements.

Thirdly (and should be at top of list), DO NOT attempt to search for or be predatory with intruders unless you absolutely have to move to secure a loved one's room. Best to hunker down behind a good barracade or cover which allows you good strategic view of any entrances to the room ...with your CX4...love mine by the way...and call 911. If the intruder enters this zone use the flashlight to identify and blind the intruder. If the opponent attacks shoot until it is safe to stop. It's a good idea to plan these scenarios out. IMHO use of a shotgun, rifle or carbine, in the untrained hands, in CQB situations is dangerous as an intruder behind a wall or corner, unseen, can wrest the weapon, by the long barrel, from you much easier than a handgun.
You will also find that an intruder hearing you call 911 AND chambering a live round will end the scenario quite quickly.
 
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Ispose    Home defense   10/28/2008 3:30:50 PM
Best thing ever:
Model 1897 12 guage Trench Gun with an attached bayonet...just screams shut up and stay down to the bad guys
 
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