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Subject: .357 Magnum stopping power
GOP    3/12/2007 10:24:42 PM
Whatsup guys? What kind of Self defense round is the .357 mag? Some of you may know that I'm 17, but I'm a gun nut, and love the S&W 686 with 4 inch barrel in .357 mag/.38 special. I'd use the gun almost completely for shooting at the range, but when I turn 21 I plan on getting my CCW license/pistol permit so it would then be used legally as a self-defense weapon. Just curious what your thoughts on the round is. The reason I like it is because it's stainless steal, and therefore won't rust (we own a fishing boat and it may be used by my Dad on the boat as a Self-Defense weapon). It's also highly, highly thought of in the NSW community (most SEALs don't like the the Sig P226 Navy, because they basically rust at the sound of "salt water")
 
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longrifle       4/2/2007 11:33:27 PM
This thread got me to doing a little more research on the .357 and I learned something interesting.  As I stated, full power .357 rounds are pretty hot for a snub nosed revolver like mine, a J frame S&W Model 60 with a 2 1/8 barrel.  So my practice has always been to use .38 +P since it has much less flash and recoil. 

In .38 +P a Winchester 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollow point is listed at something over 800 fps; not sure of the exact speed but it's in the 800-850 ballpark.  In .357 a Federal 125 grain jacketed hollow point is listed at 1265 fps and a Winchester Silvertip 145 grain JHP is listed at 1166 fps.  It's also worth remembering - especially if you carry a snubbie - that these loads were developed to be optimal in revolvers with 4" - 6" barrels.

Speer now has a load on the market specifically for short barrel revolvers.  It's called, appropriately enough, the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Load.  The one for the .357 magnum pushes a 135 grain Gold Dot JHP at 1000 fps, so you can see it has less velocity than a full power .357 but more than a .38 +P.  The 135 grain bullet weight at 1000 fps velocity was tested and found to give the best combination of accuracy, penetration, and expansion from short barrel revolvers.

I can't find them anywhere in town but I intend to order some to try.

 
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longrifle       4/3/2007 12:04:39 AM
A correction on my last post.  I just looked at different ballistic chart that lists a .357 125 grain JHP at 1450 fps. 

You get the picture though.  Full power .357 loads are pretty hot for a short barrel.  Hopefully the new short barrel load at 1000 fps will be a good compromise between .38 +P and full power .357 loads.
 
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GOP       4/3/2007 12:05:55 AM


USMC Rules for Gunfighting

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Your life is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

9.5 Use a gun that works EVERY TIME.

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don't drop your guard.

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

23. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a ".4"

Navy Rules to Gunfighting

1. Go to Sea

2. Send the Marines

3. Drink Coffee




LOL....well, tell that to the SEALs who told me to get the .357
 
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RockyMTNClimber    A+   4/3/2007 8:54:20 PM

This thread got me to doing a little more research on the .357 and I learned something interesting.  As I stated, full power .357 rounds are pretty hot for a snub nosed revolver like mine, a J frame S&W Model 60 with a 2 1/8 barrel.  So my practice has always been to use .38 +P since it has much less flash and recoil. 

In .38 +P a Winchester 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollow point is listed at something over 800 fps; not sure of the exact speed but it's in the 800-850 ballpark.  In .357 a Federal 125 grain jacketed hollow point is listed at 1265 fps and a Winchester Silvertip 145 grain JHP is listed at 1166 fps.  It's also worth remembering - especially if you carry a snubbie - that these loads were developed to be optimal in revolvers with 4" - 6" barrels.

Speer now has a load on the market specifically for short barrel revolvers.  It's called, appropriately enough, the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Load.  The one for the .357 magnum pushes a 135 grain Gold Dot JHP at 1000 fps, so you can see it has less velocity than a full power .357 but more than a .38 +P.  The 135 grain bullet weight at 1000 fps velocity was tested and found to give the best combination of accuracy, penetration, and expansion from short barrel revolvers.

I can't find them anywhere in town but I intend to order some to try.


Speeer Gold Dot Short Barrel is a very good managable load for the light weight J frame .357. I own a 340PD & that is what I carry in it every day.
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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BasinBictory    GOP: re .357 and S&W 686   4/30/2007 3:59:13 AM
GOP,
 
The .357 is an excellent round with plenty of power. From what I've read about it in its earliest iterations, the Eskimos highly prized the S&W Model 27 in its .357 caliber due to the fact that it could effectively kill bull walruses with one shot.
 
As to the Model 686, it's a great gun, and I like the modern production ones with the 7-shot clyinder. I personally have a Model 66 in a 4" barrel, because I liked the somewhat slimmer profile and better balance (to me) of it. Plus, after I got it, I had read in "Rogue Warrior" by Richard Marcinko that two of the handguns used in his Seal Team Six were the Beretta 92 and the S&W model 66! If it's good enough for the SEALs, it's good enough for me!
 
When I bought it, it was a combo deal with a Rossi/Puma 92. This is an Italian-made reproduction of the classic Winchester model 1892 lever-action rifle, and it is one of my favorite guns of all time. In a rifle weighing about 8 pounds, (it's a 24-inch octagonal barrel, stainless steel like the revolver as well) the recoil of a .357 is very light, and when I shoot .38's out of it, it feels nearly like a .22.
 
As to Yimmy saying the .357 doesn't have much recoil - I'm guessing he's either a hugely built guy, or he hasn't shot much .357 out of a 4-inch barrel. The recoil of full-house .357  loads in a service-style revolver (3 or 4-inch barrel) is considerable. It's manageable, and not quite unpleasant, but it isn't fun like .45 or 9mm, which you could shoot all day long. I practice a lot with .38's, which are very pleasant to shoot in my Mod66, but limit the amount of .357 I use for a number of reasons, not the least of which is cost.
 
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Yimmy       4/30/2007 2:28:34 PM

As to Yimmy saying the .357 doesn't have much recoil - I'm guessing he's either a hugely built guy, or he hasn't shot much .357 out of a 4-inch barrel.

In the UK we have a legal limit of 12 inches for barrels.
 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    No Handguns at all?   4/30/2007 3:15:14 PM



As to Yimmy saying the .357 doesn't have much recoil - I'm guessing he's either a hugely built guy, or he hasn't shot much .357 out of a 4-inch barrel.



In the UK we have a legal limit of 12 inches for barrels.

 



 
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flamingknives       4/30/2007 3:47:57 PM
Nothing with less than a 30cm barrel and a 60cm overall length, having a muzzle energy in excess of 6ft-lb.

The result of a somewhat knee-jerk reaction to a school shooting involving handguns and a man who should have had his license revoked some time previously.

Nonetheless, even before the ban, it was not considered good enough reason to own a handgun for self-defence. you had to be a regular range shooter.
 
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BasinBictory       5/7/2007 2:39:18 PM
"Not good enough reason to own a handgun for self-defense"
 
Jeez - what if someone were disabled? What if they were physically frail? Ugh - damn lawmakers. Let some 6 foot, 200 pound hoodlum break into their house with their wives at home with nothing to defend herself except some kitchen tools and see how quickly they change their tune!
 
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RockyMTNClimber    "Lawmakers" get their own security detail.....   5/7/2007 3:29:32 PM

"Not good enough reason to own a handgun for self-defense"

 

Jeez - what if someone were disabled? What if they were physically frail? Ugh - damn lawmakers. Let some 6 foot, 200 pound hoodlum break into their house with their wives at home with nothing to defend herself except some kitchen tools and see how quickly they change their tune!



Liberals will dictate how everyone else lives while they get special treatment. 
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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