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Subject: .357 Magnum stopping power
GOP    3/12/2007 10:24:42 PM
Whatsup guys? What kind of Self defense round is the .357 mag? Some of you may know that I'm 17, but I'm a gun nut, and love the S&W 686 with 4 inch barrel in .357 mag/.38 special. I'd use the gun almost completely for shooting at the range, but when I turn 21 I plan on getting my CCW license/pistol permit so it would then be used legally as a self-defense weapon. Just curious what your thoughts on the round is. The reason I like it is because it's stainless steal, and therefore won't rust (we own a fishing boat and it may be used by my Dad on the boat as a Self-Defense weapon). It's also highly, highly thought of in the NSW community (most SEALs don't like the the Sig P226 Navy, because they basically rust at the sound of "salt water")
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Old Coots Club   3/22/2007 12:37:16 PM
... but he struck me as pretty much just a belligerent old coot.
 
The above may be true. I have never met Cooper but I did attend Gunsite several years ago and was very impressed with the facility, its staff, and techniques.
 
They are all great references for GOP's interest in defensive shooting.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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Ehran       3/22/2007 1:13:03 PM
rocky for every one of those cases of self defense i could post a case of a domestic dispute gone bad because a gun was handy or a case of kids playing with pop's favourite home defense gun.  neither set of anecdotal incidents really advances the discussion does it?
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Incidents of Anecotes   3/22/2007 1:24:28 PM

rocky for every one of those cases of self defense i could post a case of a domestic dispute gone bad because a gun was handy or a case of kids playing with pop's favourite home defense gun.  neither set of anecdotal incidents really advances the discussion does it?


With due respect Ehran we do not have to use anecdotal stories to support our respective opinions. The crime rates have been going down in areas where gun laws have been liberalized and they have continued to rise in jurisdictions where they have been tightened. Here and on other threads I have posted those trends. The data have been collected over decades and are quite convincing.
I respect your opinion and would just ask you to be open minded to other ideas.
 
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Rocky
 
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Horsesoldier       3/22/2007 1:52:35 PM

rocky for every one of those cases of self defense i could post a case of a domestic dispute gone bad because a gun was handy or a case of kids playing with pop's favourite home defense gun.  neither set of anecdotal incidents really advances the discussion does it?



Anecdotally we can certainly regard the situation as one of moral equivalency -- for every life saved by a firearm, some other poor sod has a toddler that blows his head off or something, etc.
 
However, the real numbers do not bear this out.  Accidental handgun deaths in this country occur at a miniscule rate each year -- more people die in house fires, and many more die in automobile accidents.  You are actually more likely to die in the United States from falling off your bed or other furniture than from a firearms accident (838 deaths from furniture related falls, 703 from firearms accidents in the year 2003).
 
Likewise, domestic disputes ending in murder are rather less common that your claim would suggest, and in a certain percentage of those cases, where the relationship is abusive, justifiable self-defense may be involved in any case.
 
Against those minute (albeit tragic) cases where a handgun is used accidentally or in a crime of passion, you have estimates of anywhere upwards of 1.5 million uses of firearms for personal defense by law abiding citizens each year.  In the vast majority, all that is needed is the threat of deadly force to dissuade a criminal from pursuing a violent crime of some sort or another.  And that does not take into account at all the general cooling trend in regards to violent crime overall in areas where concealed carry laws have been liberalized that was mentioned in an earlier post -- the prospect that a victim may or may not be armed seems to do much to convince criminals to generally avoid confrontational crimes like armed robbery, assault, rape, etc.
 
So, 1.5 million actual violent crimes halted, plus however many crimes halted by a general atmosphere that is more hostile towards criminals than those parts of this country and other countries where victim disarmarment is the law of the land, versus a miniscule number of accidental deaths, etc.  Personally, I can accept that trade off -- in a perfect world there'd be no crime, no need for firearms or police or soliders, etc., but since there is not, I would say the good of millions outweighs the negligence of the few.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Well Said Horsesoldier!   3/22/2007 2:00:33 PM
 
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ChdNorm       3/22/2007 7:43:34 PM
"The above may be true. I have never met Cooper but I did attend Gunsite several years ago and was very impressed with the facility, its staff, and techniques." Rocky
 
I've never been to Gunsite itself, only done a couple of offsite LEO classes they offered. As far as training facilities in that regard, I've been very impressed with Thunder Ranch and their staff (although I have no experience with them since their move). But I do always hear that Gunsite itself is pretty damned impressive. Mainly my impression of him came from a seminar he spoke at ... and maybe he was drunk or something ... but belligerent really does just about cover it. His apparent distaste for law enforcement sat poorly with me.
 
"They are all great references for GOP's interest in defensive shooting." Rocky
 
Well said, and that is what matters. There is a lot out there that can be beneficial. I think the main thing in reading up on this sort of thing is to not get too married to one particular train of thought. There's always bits and pieces of many different techniques that can be helpful.
 
Sorry for the mid-stride name change ... but I got my original name working again.
 
I really do wish we could make our own passwords on here!
 
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longrifle       3/22/2007 9:29:55 PM
I like a lot of Cooper's stuff - I was a great fan of his monthly commentaries and his book "Art of the Rifle" - but I think he had more credibiliy as a rifleman than a pistolero.  He admitted that he had never been in a pistol discusssion; his time under fire was as a Marine Corps officer in WW II and his pistol theory was formed by the Big Bear leatherslap competition.
 
Applegate was known to have been in at least one gunfight.  The specifics of Jordan's career are hard to document but he served in the Border Patrol during an era when they (the agency, not each agent) averaged a gunfight per week.  His thorites were formed by different experiences.  Go figure. 
 
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longrifle       3/22/2007 9:30:14 PM
I like a lot of Cooper's stuff - I was a great fan of his monthly commentaries and his book "Art of the Rifle" - but I think he had more credibiliy as a rifleman than a pistolero.  He admitted that he had never been in a pistol discusssion; his time under fire was as a Marine Corps officer in WW II and his pistol theory was formed by the Big Bear leatherslap competition.
 
Applegate was known to have been in at least one gunfight.  The specifics of Jordan's career are hard to document but he served in the Border Patrol during an era when they (the agency, not each agent) averaged a gunfight per week.  His thorites were formed by different experiences.  Go figure. 
 
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longrifle       3/22/2007 9:38:00 PM

.....after you've talked to an attorney.

Longrifle that is a fine line to walk . 


S
mitty's post was a great point I guess I glossed by. 

 

Check Six

 

Rocky

 

 

 

True, Rocky, it is a fine line to walk.  I will point out that I'm currently sitting in Sandy, Utah for a 40 hour homicide school and one of the insructors is retired from Miami-Dade.  He said that in Miami an officer involved in a shooting usually did not make a statement until after he talked with a police union attorney.

 
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RockyMTNClimber       3/23/2007 12:13:32 AM




.....after you've talked to an attorney.

Longrifle that is a fine line to walk . 




S
mitty's post was a great point I guess I glossed by. 



 



Check Six



 



Rocky



 



 



 



True, Rocky, it is a fine line to walk.  I will point out that I'm currently sitting in Sandy, Utah for a 40 hour homicide school and one of the insructors is retired from Miami-Dade.  He said that in Miami an officer involved in a shooting usually did not make a statement until after he talked with a police union attorney.



Where's my french army knife. I need to waive a white flag.
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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