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Subject: .357 Magnum stopping power
GOP 3/12/2007 10:24:42 PM

Whatsup guys? What kind of Self defense round is the .357 mag? Some of you may know that I'm 17, but I'm a gun nut, and love the S&W 686 with 4 inch barrel in .357 mag/.38 special. I'd use the gun almost completely for shooting at the range, but when I turn 21 I plan on getting my CCW license/pistol permit so it would then be used legally as a self-defense weapon. Just curious what your thoughts on the round is. The reason I like it is because it's stainless steal, and therefore won't rust (we own a fishing boat and it may be used by my Dad on the boat as a Self-Defense weapon). It's also highly, highly thought of in the NSW community (most SEALs don't like the the Sig P226 Navy, because they basically rust at the sound of "salt water")

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Nichevo 4/11/2008 4:26:30 PM

Not sure I follow you Nichevo. Do you mean that people should be allowed to exact revenge as they see fit and lay in wait in a booby-trapped house with the obvious intention of killing someone?

Broadly...duhh, yeah! If the burglars didn't want to die they could get jobs and work for a living. If he had the power to bind them, force them to their knees and decapitate them with a samurai sword, I would think it a very fine outcome. DON'T ROB PEOPLE'S HOUSES!!! What part of that do people not understand?

British law, being based on precedent, would possibly permit vengeance killings and punishments in a wider sense, had Martin been let off on the grounds of "doing the right thing".

Does British law require defending homeowners against home invasions? If not, the law be damned! You Britons used to know how to make your own law when there was none. I've also read Robin Hood. And the Magna Carta too, though that was long ago. The law is what it is, it is not sacred. How about that droit de seigneur, was that right? Methinks the cops who failed him, time and again, should be the ones on trial here.

I can't understand your passivity and reliance on "it won't happen to me." Even if true, how craven! I find your thinking very difficult to accept. Why shouldn't I rob you? You can't stop me and the cops won't. Got any pretty daughters in your house?

An unjust law is no law at all.

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flamingknives 4/11/2008 5:57:11 PM

Can you not debate without constantly altering my statements to bizarre absolutes?

Of course British law requires the defence of people who cannot defend themselves and permits people who can to do it themselves. The Law failed Mr. Martin? Yes, it did. That still doesn't make what he did right.

The disconnect that you are unwilling or unable to understand is that the response must be proportionate, and that when someone stops being under threat it becomes harder to justify any action.

More simply, if someone slaps you you cannot justify shooting them in response. If they have a weapon, or are much stronger, or you have a reasonably held belief that they pose a lethal threat, then you can shoot them, hit them over the head with a frying pan or a pavement. The British are most certainly able to defend themselves. Where the problem starts and ends is when someone sets themselves up as judge, jury and executioner.

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YelliChink 4/11/2008 7:08:38 PM

The disconnect that you are unwilling or unable to understand is that the response must be proportionate, and that when someone stops being under threat it becomes harder to justify any action.

In theory, it's good to say "proportionate" when it comes to matter of using force. However, in real life, when seconds count, there is no such thing as proportionate. The idea is probably developed by some elite lawyers who never ever need to face life/death scenario in their lives in their well guarded homes and workplace. The "proportionate response" in my book is that you don't go over there and shoot them in the head to make sure they are 110% dead after you shot them in self defense.

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flamingknives 4/12/2008 4:46:17 AM

I would be very surprised if the US didn't have some kind of proportionate response ruling. Like I said earlier, using lethal force on someone for slapping you is not proportionate. If you are in fear of you life then it is.

When you see people getting arrested for self-defence in the UK (usually in the Daily Mail, so as to provoke outrage by equivocating) it's typically because they have administered a coup de grace, or otherwise harmed an aggressor after they have ceased to be a threat. Note that the definition of threat is on the basis of reasonably held belief rather than evidence after the fact.

The other common problem, highlighted, in part, by the Martin case, is that of preparing a property to do harm to someone. I don't like that so much, but there is some sense in it, as some people have good cause to cross your boundaries without your permission (don't want fire fighters falling on punji stakes, do we?).

The state of play in the UK is not ideal, perhaps, but it isn't anywhere near as broken as those across the pond like to pretend.

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YelliChink 4/12/2008 9:23:21 AM

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While in UK:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/7244782.stm

'Happy slap' death girl convicted

A 15-year-old girl has admitted filming the death of a man on her mobile phone in a so-called "happy slapping" attack.

She pleaded guilty to aiding and abetting manslaughter at Leeds Crown Court after filming the attack on Gavin Waterhouse last September.

Mr Waterhouse, 29, from Keighley, later died from a ruptured spleen.

The Crown Prosecution Service said the decision to prosecute the girl was a legal landmark. Mark Masters, 19, and a male, 17, have admitted manslaughter.

All three defendants will be sentenced at a later date.

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http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif" alt="" border="0" height="13" width="24"> The message is this: If you stand by and watch your friends committing brutal crimes and video their acts... prosecution may follow

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif" alt="" align="right" border="0" height="13" vspace="0" width="23">

Judith Naylor, CPS

According to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), the girl was handed a mobile phone by one of the attackers and was told to "video this".

She then approached Mr Waterhouse and asked him for some money before recording the attack upon him.

Prosecution witnesses said they saw and heard the attackers boasting about what they had just done, saying it was not the first time that they had attacked the victim.

'Cowardly attack'

Judith Naylor, from the CPS, said: "As far as I am aware, this is the first time a suspect in England and Wales has been successfully prosecuted for aiding and abetting murder or manslaughter, for the filming of an inaptly called 'happy slapping' incident.

"The message is this: If you stand by and watch your friends committing brutal crimes and video their acts for yours or for others' amusement your actions will not be ignored by the law enforcement agencies and prosecution may follow."

Neil Atkinson, from the North of England Victims' Association (Neva), said: "It's revolting to think of people celebrating the pain and suffering and eventual death of someone in the way that has obviously taken place in this case."

He said Neva believed the three teenagers should receive long custodial sentences but was concerned about the current "atrocious weak sentencing" of criminals in the UK.

"If they served one to two years in prison, is this sort of person likely to be cured or deterred by that short prison sentence?

"Common sense says that they would not."

Det Supt Paul Kennedy, from West Yorkshire Police, said: "We are pleased with the outcome of this police investigation following what was an unprovoked and cowardly attack. Our thoughts are with Gavin's family."

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RockyMTNClimber Proportionality 4/12/2008 10:36:48 AM

The state of play in the UK is not ideal, perhaps, but it isn't anywhere near as broken as those across the pond like to pretend.

I believe the concept of proportionality is absurd. Either the situation justifies deadly force or it does not. Pretty much universally the use of deadly force in the US is based upon the victim's reasonable perception of the threat at the time of the incident. There are many jurisdictions in the US that are just as unfriendly to individual use of any force as the UK is. New York City and Washington DC come to mind. Where crimes are rampant in spite of the gains made in other parts of the Country.

Regarding the "proportinality" concept, each of our states and many local jurisdictions have different, if not similar, laws regarding the use of deadly force. In my home state of Colorado there is a legal presumption that if a bad guy enters a occupied dwelling for the purpose of theft or robbery the use of deadly force is justified. Full stop, no further questions asked. There was a spate of such home breakins this winter in Colorado Springs. 6 families were robbed and beaten at gun and knife point by a gang of ner-do-wells (from another state). The predictable result was a home owner who used his duck gun to kill one walking down the hall with his TV and blast the other off of the front porch. Instead of making an appearance before a grand jury he was interviewed on the local news channels. Well done lad! The same is true here for a bad guy forcing his way into a victim's auto. If they try to enter it is presumed they mean to do great harm and the use of any force to repell them is justified by Colorado law. I fully support this law and for our trouble we have fewer breakins and allot fewer car jackings in our cities here than in other states like California. Where you have to prove they meant you harm in order to use deadly force (as if breaking down the apt. door or forcing their way into your car isn't proof enough!).

There remains a great variety of laws in the US regarding the use of deadly force and these all are subject to the political whim of the District Attorneys of the various jurisdictions. In the final analysis it might be said that it is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

Check Six

Rocky

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flamingknives 4/13/2008 7:00:33 AM

Rocky,

By the sound of it, Calafornia offers you less opportunity for you to defend yourself legally than the UK, as in the UK you only need a reasonably-held belief that the intruder means you harm.

When Yellichink deigns to make a relevant point, maybe we could have a discussion. Until then, he can carry on as a troll.

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YelliChink 4/14/2008 9:55:54 AM

Rocky,

By the sound of it, Calafornia offers you less opportunity for you to defend yourself legally than the UK, as in the UK you only need a reasonably-held belief that the intruder means you harm.

When Yellichink deigns to make a relevant point, maybe we could have a discussion. Until then, he can carry on as a troll.

>
South Valley Teen Kills Man, Police Say Self Defense (in CA)

Villa said this incident should serve as a warning to other victims of domestic violence. He said they should report and follow through on domestic violence complaints, because many times those complaints turn into violent situations.

Visalia Police Department said the boy is not responsible for the murder, rather it was self-defense.

Moments before Martinez was shot, neighbors say Martinez waved a gun at several people outside the home, including his common law wife and her brother.

"We're taking the stance that the juvenile was taking steps to prevent additional violence there," said Sgt. Ernie Villa of the Visalia Police Department.

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YelliChink 4/14/2008 9:58:01 AM

Business owner shoots at burglar (Also in CA)

Bakersfield Police are searching for a burglary suspect who may have been shot by the owner of a business he was trying to break into Tuesday morning.

It happened just before 5 a.m. at Dennis Brown Racing Engines in the 3200 block of Chester Lane. Police tell us the suspect was caught in the act by the business owner who reportedly got a call from the alarm company with a report of the power being out.

When the employee gets there he finds the alleged burglar inside the business, gets a gun and beings shooting at the suspect.

At this point, we don't know if the suspect was hit because he fled on foot. Police are still looking for the suspect.

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theBird 4/14/2008 11:12:03 AM

Laws here in PA used to be that you could use deadly force if the intruder was going to "commit a felony", but of course that created the tricky problem of forcing people to guess if the fellow was there to commit a felony or just a misdemenor. So the laws got changed and now you can use deadly force if its reasonably required to stop in entry (so if Bubba the meth dealer is trying to get in they its going to be justfied, not so much if its Mildred the 80 year old asthematic burglar). Still I'm pretty sure shooting fleeing burglars is a no-no in every place.

Also if the bad guy has a firearm, its much easier to get away with anything, regardless of the exact circumstances, since you can easily argue that thier "flight" was merely a tactical retreat to get a better shot. Not so easy to do if they guy has a crowbar. This might be another reason the UK seems like it punishes homeowners more than the US; many of the US justifiable shooting cases involve waxing a bad guy who himself was packing heat, wheras it seems a lot of the UK burglars were unarmed and in a good number of cases fleeing as well when they met thier maker.

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