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Subject: .357 Magnum stopping power
GOP    3/12/2007 10:24:42 PM
Whatsup guys? What kind of Self defense round is the .357 mag? Some of you may know that I'm 17, but I'm a gun nut, and love the S&W 686 with 4 inch barrel in .357 mag/.38 special. I'd use the gun almost completely for shooting at the range, but when I turn 21 I plan on getting my CCW license/pistol permit so it would then be used legally as a self-defense weapon. Just curious what your thoughts on the round is. The reason I like it is because it's stainless steal, and therefore won't rust (we own a fishing boat and it may be used by my Dad on the boat as a Self-Defense weapon). It's also highly, highly thought of in the NSW community (most SEALs don't like the the Sig P226 Navy, because they basically rust at the sound of "salt water")
 
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Horsesoldier       5/11/2007 1:43:39 PM
 

and yet the for all the goodness that being heavily armed brings the us murder rate per capita is what 4x the canadian rate?




Just one of those quirks of crime statistics, I suppose.  Not unlike how Canadian men are more likely to commit rapes than their American counterparts.  I suppose making sure the fairer sex up North lacks the means to defend themselves from beer addled, hockey-crazed Canadian menfolk doesn't help those numbers though.
 
More seriously, over half of all American homicides are committed by individuals involved in the illegal drug trade (on both ends of the gun).  Factor them out and the American murder rate is not overly impressive compared to the Canadian rate.
 
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andyf       5/11/2007 4:07:42 PM
and they don't have drugs in Canada?
 
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Horsesoldier       5/11/2007 7:39:17 PM

and they don't have drugs in Canada?



I would suggest it is a rather less cutthroat business environment, insofar as Canada funds its "War on Drugs" at a fractional rate of what the US spends, per capita. 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Ehran is it too much to ask you to read the posts?   5/12/2007 11:51:29 AM

since you are apparently suffering from selective amnesia please refer back to your post "self defense is a right" 3/19/2007 where you posted a number of anecdotes.

 

you really do need to pick up your game rocky.

 

your phrase for the day "straw man argument"


Okay read that post again. You will find each story is sourced with the local news paper, TV station, Magazine ect.. That takes them out of the realm of "anecdotes". I will pick up my game when you get to the field Ehran.
Once again I give you fact, research, and credible sources while you toss nasty names around.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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RockyMTNClimber    More News clips about Firearms used in self defense.   5/12/2007 12:08:06 PM

All stories are properly referenced as noted:
 
Ten minutes after Suzanne Carson’s husband left for work, she went back to bed with her 3-year-old daughter. Shortly thereafter, Carson heard a noise and went to check on her 4-year-old son sleeping down the hall. According to police, to Carson’s horror she saw a man tampering with the back door. She loaded a gun and shouted at the man to stop. Unabated, the intruder forced the door open and began to enter. Carson fired a single shot, but the brazen suspect continued his advance. Two more shots, however, and the suspect recognized the folly of breaking into the home of an armed citizen, and he fled the area. Carson’s husband had taken her shooting for the first time just a month prior. “I’m so proud of her for being able to protect herself and the kids,” he said. (WBIR YV-10, Knoxville, TN, 02/16/07)

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A Miami attorney was exiting a parking lot after work when he was rushed by an armed robber with handcuffs in his pocket and wearing a ski mask. According to authorities, the attorney tried to race from the parking lot, but the security gate opened too slowly. His assailant aimed a pistol and, the victim believes, he tried to shoot but the gun malfunctioned. The victim retrieved a handgun from his glove box and fired several shots at his assailant, killing him. A second, hidden suspect also fled. (The Miami Herald, Miami, FL, 03/03/07)

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Doug Magnus and his wife were startled by the sound every homeowner fears—a loud noise at the door during the midnight hour. Police say Magnus, armed with a firearm, went to investigate. Just outside the door, he encountered a man wearing a ski mask who fired several shots. Magnus returned a single round, killing his assailant. (The Times, Gainesville, GA, 01/23/07)

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A homeowner heard a loud noise at the rear of his home and observed three men in hooded jackets, at least one of them carrying a handgun. According to authorities, he shouted for the intruders to leave but they ignored his plea and began forcing their way inside. But the resident wasn’t going to let that happen. He fired two shots at the advancing men, and they fled the home. One suspect died and his former accomplices are in custody. The assistant prosecutor noted the seriousness of the matter: “Three men planned to do something in the house even after learning and hearing the homeowner was inside.” (The Detroit News, Detroit, MI, 02/14/07)

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Police say a burglar kicked in Joseph Patrick’s basement door and began sifting through his belongings. Patrick, a much-liked neighbor and World War II veteran, was well over twice the intruder’s age, but he had the great equalizer on his side: a firearm. Armed with a .32-caliber handgun, Patrick ordered the man to lie on the floor and spread his arms while he called police. When the intruder stood and made a move, Patrick fired a shot, hitting the man and causing him to flee. Patrick thought the suspect fled the home, but when police arrived the suspect bolted from a closet and into the arms of a responding officer. “I don’t feel good about shooting that guy, but he broke into my home,” explains Patrick. (Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Pittsburgh, PA, 01/27/07)

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According to authorities, a homeowner armed himself and called 9-1-1 to report several males ringing his doorbell incessantly. While the homeowner talked to a dispatcher, the men hopped a gate and entered the backyard where they tried to enter the residence through a back window. The homeowner fired several shots, killing one of the suspects. The other men fled, and one was arrested shortly thereafter. At least one neighbor said he no longer felt as safe in his home, and he intends to make sure he’s better fortified against criminal assault. “That makes me want to buy a gun now,” he said. “I should buy one to defend my family. You have to
 
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Ehran       5/12/2007 3:28:22 PM


 


and yet the for all the goodness that being heavily armed brings the us murder rate per capita is what 4x the canadian rate?





Just one of those quirks of crime statistics, I suppose.  Not unlike how Canadian men are more likely to commit rapes than their American counterparts.  I suppose making sure the fairer sex up North lacks the means to defend themselves from beer addled, hockey-crazed Canadian menfolk doesn't help those numbers though.

 

More seriously, over half of all American homicides are committed by individuals involved in the illegal drug trade (on both ends of the gun).  Factor them out and the American murder rate is not overly impressive compared to the Canadian rate.


one thing that majorly balls up comparing crime statistics is the differences in reporting standards and just what you can get charged with for a given level of shall we say hostility.  it's a lot easier to get charged with assault here in canada than it is in the states for instance which would skew the stats if you don't make some kind of an allowance for it.
 
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andyf    these attacks   5/13/2007 2:40:32 PM
all those stories of attacks the perptrators were armed , so was the defender.
would the perpetrators be using firearms for these sort of minor criminal enterprises if they were quite hard to get hold o>
I doubt it.
the only reason that there were guns used on both sides is the ready availability of such.
having a gun would be fine, but what you have to realise is that if you , a sane responsible non-nutter, can get one then so can anyone else.
If I have a group of guys ringing my doorbell incessantly Ill call the police .
If they keep doing it, ill chuck a bucket of water on em
they wont be armed here, I prefer it like that
 
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RockyMTNClimber    ARGH!   5/13/2007 2:56:21 PM

all those stories of attacks the perptrators were armed , so was the defender.

would the perpetrators be using firearms for these sort of minor criminal enterprises if they were quite hard to get hold o>

I doubt it.

the only reason that there were guns used on both sides is the ready availability of such.

having a gun would be fine, but what you have to realise is that if you , a sane responsible non-nutter, can get one then so can anyone else.

If I have a group of guys ringing my doorbell incessantly Ill call the police .

If they keep doing it, ill chuck a bucket of water on em

they wont be armed here, I prefer it like that


You missed the point of the data shown above quoting statistical analysis of the UK & Aussie experience, which mirrors experiences in the US and other places. Unilateral disarmament does not work. When we disarm the citizens we are left with armed crooks who run rampant. This consequence has been repeated over and over in places as disimilar as Darfur & Virginia Tech.
 
I agree with you that in a perfect world guns would only be used for sport shooting and hunting. I hope we find perfection, but for now .....
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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flamingknives       5/13/2007 3:39:58 PM
Rocky,

I don't think that it is entirely correct to cite the British experience in the manner you have.

The article notes that crime had been rising since the early 1990's, while the handgun ban was in the late 1990's. Furthermore, prior to this (since the 1980's at least) firearms of any type required a firearms license and associated paperwork, background checks, secure storage and club membership.

As a result, claiming that the rise in crime is due to the lack of firearms is not correct. You could draw the conclusion that the outlawing of handguns has not reduced crime rates, but not that their lack has increased it. There are too many other factors for that to be true.
 
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Yimmy       5/14/2007 10:09:09 AM

According to authorities, a homeowner armed himself and called 9-1-1 to report several males ringing his doorbell incessantly. While the homeowner talked to a dispatcher, the men hopped a gate and entered the backyard where they tried to enter the residence through a back window. The homeowner fired several shots, killing one of the suspects. The other men fled, and one was arrested shortly thereafter. At least one neighbor said he no longer felt as safe in his home, and he intends to make sure he’s better fortified against criminal assault. “That makes me want to buy a gun now,” he said. “I should buy one to defend my family. You have to be safe.” (Summerlin News, Henderson, NV, 01/26/07)

 

 Check Six

 

Rocky



That shooting was not justified.  None of the criminals were armed, and they didn't even gain access to the house by the sounds of it.  At the least, the home owner shooting was premature.
 
 
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