Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Weapons of the World Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Another story of how the 5.56 can't stop em' -- WE NEED A NEW ROUND
HYPOCENTER    2/10/2007 4:52:49 PM
Not sure if anyone has read this story; http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/gates-of-fire.htm But, a terrorist took 4 point plank shots from an M4 and kept on fighting. It is yet another example of why 5.56 sucks and CAN'T STOP EM. It makes me angry. QUOTE: A man came forward, trying to shoot Kurilla with a pistol, apparently realizing his only escape was by fighting his way out, or dying in the process. Kurilla was aiming at the doorway waiting for him to come out. Had Prosser not come at that precise moment, who knows what the outcome might have been. Prosser shot the man at least four times with his M4 rifle. But the American M4 rifles are weak - after Prosser landed three nearly point blank shots in the man’s abdomen, splattering a testicle with a fourth, the man just staggered back, regrouped and tried to shoot Prosser. Then Prosser’s M4 went “black” (no more bullets). A shooter inside was also having problems with his pistol, but there was no time to reload. Prosser threw down his empty M4, ran into the shop and tackled the man.
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10   NEXT
Ispose       4/10/2007 10:54:44 AM
Well it looks like we're stuck with the 5.56 round for a while...I don't like it by my main arguement is with the M-4/M-16's anyway. Never had much luck with them. Used them for 6 years in the Army and always had misfeeds when using them. Spent most of the time using a M-60 so I was OK with not being issued a M-16. The 60 is heavy but I never had any trouble with it. Put 15,000 round through mine one day at the range and it worked fine. Maybe we should look at an updated Mini-14 with a different stock and accessory rails...I trust that action more than the M-16 series.
 
Quote    Reply

Horsesoldier       4/10/2007 11:02:22 AM

They may not melt, but what is stopping them from "cooking-off"?




Heat build up in caseless weapons designs is one of those issues that I don't think has been fully answered.  I know HK had the G11 ready to enter production, but I'm curious about what their sustained fire numbers were and how well they'd have held up if/when a bunch of troops started putting them to the test.
 
Quote    Reply

Yimmy       4/10/2007 11:15:48 AM



They may not melt, but what is stopping them from "cooking-off"?





Heat build up in caseless weapons designs is one of those issues that I don't think has been fully answered.  I know HK had the G11 ready to enter production, but I'm curious about what their sustained fire numbers were and how well they'd have held up if/when a bunch of troops started putting them to the test.
I suppose there are two obvious answers.  Fireing the weapon from the open bolt principle, which would sacrifice some on accuracy, although I do not know if this would be a real issue what with the H&K G11 being designed to fire in bursts anyway.  That, or water-cooling the barrel like a Maxim/Vickers, which obviously would hardly be practicle in a rifle.

Out of curiosity, I just read that JFK was assasinated with a Manlicher-Carcanno in 6.5x52mm Italian, using the standard round nosed bullet of early WWII.  I don't know why but I had always assumed the rifle had been rechambred to 30-06.  The Italian round had a worse reputation than 5.56mm NATO, and still killed JFK dead.


 
Quote    Reply

andyf    jfk   4/10/2007 3:33:03 PM
well he did hit him in an important place.
or then again, maybe the 3 cia snipers with 7.62, and the mafia snipers, I think theyd use 30.06
the 2 soviets were using moisin nagants and the aliens were using lasers, but they missed.
I believe ALL conspiracies!!
 
Quote    Reply

Mike From Brielle       4/25/2007 5:05:19 PM
IF the US was to get a new infantry weapon I would want it to have an op-rod, be an M-16 pattern type weapon, come in 6.5 mm Grendal type round with an effective range of 800 meters, be able to go thru standard massonry walls for CQB. Controllable in full auto/ low recoil. 
 
Have a capability to convert to a squad support weapon (be able to take a belt but the majority of the time use a large capacity magazine, C-MAG, like the shrike, if it has to suppliment or stand in for the MMG), fire from the open bolt in full automatic, fire from the closed bolt in semi.  I don't think including a 3 shot bust capability would be a bad thing.  Some way to adjust the rate of fire over a wide range of cyclic rates (interchangable lead (3) and alluminum (3) slugs for the contents of the buffer (3 lead very slow or 3 aluminum very fast otherwise mix and match) maybe with also a gas adjust - just spitballing:). 
 
It should be a relatively high velocity round (~3000 + fps) from an 18 in barrel.  Accuracy would be equal too or better than the current M-16. 
 
 I would like a plastic case for the round so that the Marine / soldier  would still be able carry as many rounds as for the 5.56.  Perhaps the edge of the neck of the round should have tiny hemispheres along the edge so that gas can get between the cartridge case and the chamber wall when the bullet clears the cartridge so that there will not be to much friction between the cartidge neck and the chamber which would hopefully help prevent stuck / jammed rounds.  This might require some slight reaming of the chamber wall   but since we're changing calibers it should'nt be a big deal.
 
This would be a big change for everyone but lets say we base the new round on the 7.62 X 51 and cut it back to say 45 and of course neck it down to 6.5.  It would be a hard sell so perhaps we should first approach the ABCA countries to see if they could get on board befor we go to NATO.  Since many of the countries that have just recently come into NATO have to change to a 5.56 from a 7.62 X 39 maybe it wouldn't be a big deal for them.
 
Quote    Reply

ChdNorm       4/25/2007 9:44:28 PM
Being the JFK assassination buff that I am ...
 
Oddly enough, in 1973 when the Dallas County Records building was being re-roofed,  workers discovered a spent .30-06' case. The DPD ballistics lab examined it at the time and found traces of plastic inside the case neck ... as if it had been fired with a sabot. 6.5mm being a smaller diameter than a 7.62mm .. it makes one wonder where exhibit 399 really came from. The spent case was turned over to the House Select Committee on Assassinations by the DPD in 1978 and was never seen again.
 
There is one, kind of goofy in my opinion, theory out there that JFK received his fatal head shot as the result on a negligent discharge from the Secret Service follow up car. The theory goes something along the lines of one of the agents riding in the follow up car was sitting on the top of the back seat, and reached down and grabbed an AR-15 from the floorboard at the first sound of gunfire. The follow up car came to almost a complete stop as Agent Hill jumped from the running board to dash to the Presidents limo (he's the one you see crawling over the trunk in the Zupruder film). As the Agent raises his AR-15, the driver of the follow up car floors it ... making him lose his balance and putting one in the back of the President's head. Like I said ... kinda goofy in my opinion.
 
BUT, as stupid and unlikely as that sounds, it does make one wonder about a couple of things.
 
1. It explains the smell of gunpowder that Sam Rayburn, LBJ, and several reporters swore they smelled as they followed the Presidential Limo out of Dealey Plaza.
 
2. The Secret Service denied then (and still to this day) the presence of any long guns in the motorcade. However, photos of the motorcade forming up at Love Field just prior to the trip downtown clearly shows an agent holding an AR-15 as he climbs in the back seat of the follow up car.
 
3. The explosive head wound is not consistent with the relatively low velocity of the 6.5 Carcano. It is, however, pretty damn consistent with getting hit with a .223.
 
I still think it's kind of goofy, and don't buy it. Just a little worthless trivial information for your amusement. Personally, I'm about 98% convinced LBJ had Kennedy killed. What drives me nuts about it is trying to figure out who killed J.D. Tippet.
 
 
Quote    Reply

Horsesoldier       4/25/2007 11:59:03 PM

IF the US was to get a new infantry weapon I would want it to have an op-rod, be an M-16 pattern type weapon, come in 6.5 mm Grendal type round with an effective range of 800 meters, be able to go thru standard massonry walls for CQB. Controllable in full auto/ low recoil. 
 
(snip)
 
This would be a big change for everyone but lets say we base the new round on the 7.62 X 51 and cut it back to say 45 and of course neck it down to 6.5.  It would be a hard sell so perhaps we should first approach the ABCA countries to see if they could get on board befor we go to NATO.  Since many of the countries that have just recently come into NATO have to change to a 5.56 from a 7.62 X 39 maybe it wouldn't be a big deal for them.

Grendel isn't the only 6.5mm round out there, nor the most capable if you drop the M16 magwell requirement.  The x51mm round you describe already exists -- .260 Remington.  Anything Grendel can do, ballistically, it can do better, but has to be built on .308 kind of receivers (AR-10, FALs, etc.).
 
The main problem with a x51mm kind of cartridge is that it reduces your basic load of ammo, in terms of both bulk and weight.  Weight wise you might be able to carry a few more .260/6.5x51 rounds than 150 grain 308 rounds (I seem to recall .260 Remington works well with the same kind of 120-ish grain bullets Grendel commonly uses -- 139 grain Swedish Mauser bullets are even better), but you're still looking at chopping a basic load in about half from what it is with 5.56mm.  Even with weight savings from a plastic case or something, you've still got bulk issues to contend with from that long round.
 
6.5mm, 140 grain bullet, caseless, would probably be about perfect as a battle rifle round.  Not sure how it would work as a assault rifle -- lighter bullet in the 110-120 grain range would work better but gives up some of the long range capability (not that assault rifles need everything high efficiency 6.5mm bullets bring to the table -- hits at 3-600 meters are possible with 5.56mm, but their extreme rareness is not the bullet, it's the reality of combat shooting). 

 
Quote    Reply

Yimmy       4/26/2007 12:14:31 AM
 

3. The explosive head wound is not consistent with the relatively low velocity of the 6.5 Carcano. It is, however, pretty damn consistent with getting hit with a .223.
I don't really buy that.  We are only talking about a distance of around 100m's.  The 6.5mm bullet at that distance would make just as nasty a wound as .223.
 
What gets me about the whole assassination issue, is how obvious I would have thought it would be as to what weapon killed him, as a result of the bullets recovered (I'm assuming they were recovered).
 
6.5mm Italian is a very distinctive round.  The case is unique and not common, and the bullet is round nosed (rare for a military rifle round of the period).  If only these bullets and cases were recovered, this is obviously what killed JFK.  The sabot theory is interesting, but reasonable possible.  You use a sabot to acheive a higher velocity, and as such you would not use a round nosed bullet in combination with a sabot.
 
In my brief readings I saw a number of bogus firearm theories mentioned.  It really does make me wonder what "experts" were consulted for the trial.  One bogus report I read was trying to say how the 6.5mm Carcano round was infamous for being unreliable, and so no assassin would choose to use it.  This was shown to be incorrect by tests with the assassination rifle and ammunition from the same Winchester batch as those used.  Another bogus myth, was someone stating that such an old rifle (given that it was even that old at the time of the assassination) would leave a powder burn on the shooters cheek.  This is utter rubbish, as there is no reason why any rifle should leak explosive gasses out of the breech of the weapon - the spent case seals the chamber through residue pressure from the shot.
 
What happened to Oswald, he didn't last until trial did he?
 
 
Quote    Reply

Zerbrechen       4/26/2007 1:42:47 AM

IF the US was to get a new infantry weapon I would want it to have an op-rod, be an M-16 pattern type weapon, come in 6.5 mm Grendal type round with an effective range of 800 meters, be able to go thru standard massonry walls for CQB. Controllable in full auto/ low recoil. 

 GROOOAAANNN.   And if I wanted a new weapon it should be able to shoot down aircraft, penetrate heavy armor, yet not over penetrate the target.  It would be capable of select fire in bursts to be determined by the shooter, with finned bullets to steer toward the target, and around corners.
 
Go through masonry walls in CQB?  Why not just shoot the place up with a 50 at distance?  WHat, we need to go in to get the hostages?  Why do we want ammo that goes through walls?  Bear in mind that the 5.56 will chew through walls, you jus need to use more than one.

Have a capability to convert to a squad support weapon (be able to take a belt but the majority of the time use a large capacity magazine, C-MAG, like the shrike, if it has to suppliment or stand in for the MMG), fire from the open bolt in full automatic, fire from the closed bolt in semi.  I don't think including a 3 shot bust capability would be a bad thing.  Some way to adjust the rate of fire over a wide range of cyclic rates (interchangable lead (3) and alluminum (3) slugs for the contents of the buffer (3 lead very slow or 3 aluminum very fast otherwise mix and match) maybe with also a gas adjust - just spitballing:). 

 MGs area "get 'em in and get 'em out kind of weapons.  Aluminum slugs?  Two kinds of ammu ition to be switched depending on who you wish to shoot at?  Easy Stomach!

It should be a relatively high velocity round (~3000 + fps) from an 18 in barrel.  Accuracy would be equal too or better than the current M-16. 

 Pleae read Horsesoldiers several posts dealing with give and take in assault rifles.
Quote    Reply

ChdNorm       4/26/2007 7:31:42 AM
First of all, I'm really not trying to highjack this thread and turn it into a JFK assassination thread ... the mention of a .30-06' in regard to the caliber used prompted me to throw in a little worthless and irrelevant information. However, this being yet another thread about how lacking the 5.56 is ... I might as well just go ahead and keep talking about the Kennedy assassination anyway. 
 
"I don't really buy that.  We are only talking about a distance of around 100m's.  The 6.5mm bullet at that distance would make just as nasty a wound as .223." Yimmy
 
The 6.5 Carcano and the .223 Remington (which it would be in this case, as the rifle in question was a commercial production Colt AR-15 given to the Secret Service on a trial basis) have distinctly different potentials for wound profiles. The relatively slow Carcano round (moving out at only about 2000-2200 FPS), with its much more stable long axis is geared towards deep penetration. When you also take into account the heavy jacket construction and bullet profile, it does not lend itself to creating the type of explosive head wounds that a much faster, less stable, and more lightly constructed projectile (having the tendency to fragment) does.
 
"What gets me about the whole assassination issue, is how obvious I would have thought it would be as to what weapon killed him, as a result of the bullets recovered (I'm assuming they were recovered)." Yimmy
 
Only one was recovered ... The Warren Commission's exhibit 399. 399 was recovered from a stretcher in a hallway at Parkland that may or may not have carried either the President or the Governor at some point. Several nurses and orderlies at Parkland swore under oath that the stretcher that the bullet was recovered from had actually been used to transport a different patient unrelated to the assassination. Further issues have been brought up concerning such things as the 158 gr. bullet weighing 158.6 grains upon discovery, while the knee of John Connelly that it supposedly passed thru still contained 3 or 4 grains of jacket material. In any case, more ballistic evidence may very well have been recovered ... had LBJ not immediately ordered the Secret Service to take the President's car from Parkland and hose it out.
 
"You use a sabot to acheive a higher velocity, and as such you would not use a round nosed bullet in combination with a sabot." Yimmy
 
Not necessarily. In this hypothetical, the use of a sabot would indicate the potential to fire an 6.5mm projectile down the bore of a .30 caliber rifle for a different reason. That of either masking the identifiers of the rifle launching the projectile, or planting a specific projectile into a scene for comparison with the rifle you want the dots to connect to.  A 6.5mm launched down the bore of a .30-06' thru a sabot would preserve any rifling for comparison later, if the 6.5 projectile had already been fired and recovered thru a different rifle.
 
"In my brief readings I saw a number of bogus firearm theories mentioned.  It really does make me wonder what "experts" were consulted for the trial." Yimmy
 
There was no trial. Only a Presidential Commission to investigate the assassination (and 15 years later, a House committee) . If the Warren Commission was not the absolute worst and shoddiest investigation ever ... then it was definitely the worst and shoddiest investigation ever run by a group of hand-picked rank amateurs at the least. Maybe if the initial investigation had of been conducted with at least the bare minimum amount of skill and professionalism, there wouldn't be all the questions that remain to this day. Taken at face value ... the Warren report is a whole lot of nothing.
 
"One bogus report I read was trying to say how the 6.5mm Carcano round was infamous for being unreliable, and so no assassin would choose to use it.  This was shown to be incorrect by tests with the assassination rifle and ammunition from the same Winchester batch as those used." Yimmy
 
If by tests, you mean the FBI tests of Oswald's rifle for the Warren Commission, then here would be another great opportunity to ramble on for another thousand words. In trying to keep this short, I will simply add that said rifle would not even print on paper till they stopped the test and shimmed up the scope mount base (The scope lacked enough elevation to bring the point of impact into the scope's field of vision ...  I'm thinking it was the rear base they had to shim, but I'm working from memory here) enough to allow them to sight in the rifle, in order to complete the test. If anything, the tests of Oswald's rifle show that in its original (as recovered at the scene) condition, it was not capable
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10   NEXT



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics