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Subject: Another story of how the 5.56 can't stop em' -- WE NEED A NEW ROUND
HYPOCENTER    2/10/2007 4:52:49 PM
Not sure if anyone has read this story; http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/gates-of-fire.htm But, a terrorist took 4 point plank shots from an M4 and kept on fighting. It is yet another example of why 5.56 sucks and CAN'T STOP EM. It makes me angry. QUOTE: A man came forward, trying to shoot Kurilla with a pistol, apparently realizing his only escape was by fighting his way out, or dying in the process. Kurilla was aiming at the doorway waiting for him to come out. Had Prosser not come at that precise moment, who knows what the outcome might have been. Prosser shot the man at least four times with his M4 rifle. But the American M4 rifles are weak - after Prosser landed three nearly point blank shots in the man’s abdomen, splattering a testicle with a fourth, the man just staggered back, regrouped and tried to shoot Prosser. Then Prosser’s M4 went “black” (no more bullets). A shooter inside was also having problems with his pistol, but there was no time to reload. Prosser threw down his empty M4, ran into the shop and tackled the man.
 
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Horsesoldier       4/4/2007 5:32:12 PM


Your right if your talking about going to a 7.62mm round but what if there's a 15% improved chance of stopping a target with a 6mm or 6.5mm round. Would the extra weight be worth it? To me that's the big question. How many lifes would be saved by that 15% improvement? How many less rounds could you carry if they were 6.5mm?
That is a more complicated equation, but it still runs into the fundamental point that, with current technology, we're just pushing around pluses and minuses.  I'd have to wonder that if every life saved by throwing a bigger bullet would not have a corresponding life lost because the shooter only had 25 or 26 rounds in the gun (or a smaller basic load carried overall), or was slightly slower transitioning to new targets due to recoil, and such.
 
 
I'm not saying you lose one for reason B for everyone you save for reason A, but just that "bigger/heavier bullet" does not carry zero liabilities along with the plus of more thump on the bad guys.
 
 
I think that the recommendations that we keep what we've got as long as we're shooting cased cartridges makes sense (and I say that as enough of a fan of 6.8mm Rem SPC that I own a 6.8mm AR).  If/when (and it looks more like a 'when' at this point) we see the technology jump from conventional cartridges to caseless or cased telescoping ammunition, I'd hope we take a hard look at formulating an ideal small arms round, the hits an optimal balance of bullet weight, caliber, recoil, muzzle energy and the like.  It may be that 5.56mm puts in a good showing (caseless or CTA lets might allow use of heavy 90 grain rounds which currently are tricky to get to feed through an AR magwell), or it may be that something else seems preferable.  I personally suspect that we won't see anything smaller/lighter than 62 grain 5.56mm selected, but it would be interesting to see what a blank slate, with no logistical tail or existing stocks of weapons and ammo to contend with, would result in.
 
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cinattra    Need more reliable weapon   4/5/2007 10:51:36 AM
Not new round need a new weapon.
 
You shoot at a guy four times and all you get is four rounds with a weapon that is capable of semi-auto fire.  The M4 has a tendancy to jam on semi-auto fire.
 
Even when you don't fire the thing get's dirty.  Being in the sandbox makes it that much worse.
 
We need to stop buying anymore of these crap guns.
 
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historynut       4/5/2007 11:20:12 AM

 
That is a more complicated equation, but it still runs into the fundamental point that, with current technology, we're just pushing around pluses and minuses.  I'd have to wonder that if every life saved by throwing a bigger bullet would not have a corresponding life lost because the shooter only had 25 or 26 rounds in the gun (or a smaller basic load carried overall), or was slightly slower transitioning to new targets due to recoil, and such.
 I'm not saying you lose one for reason B for everyone you save for reason A, but just that "bigger/heavier bullet" does not carry zero liabilities along with the plus of more thump on the bad guys.
I think that the recommendations that we keep what we've got as long as we're shooting cased cartridges makes sense (and I say that as enough of a fan of 6.8mm Rem SPC that I own a 6.8mm AR).  If/when (and it looks more like a 'when' at this point) we see the technology jump from conventional cartridges to caseless or cased telescoping ammunition, I'd hope we take a hard look at formulating an ideal small arms round, the hits an optimal balance of bullet weight, caliber, recoil, muzzle energy and the like.  It may be that 5.56mm puts in a good showing (caseless or CTA lets might allow use of heavy 90 grain rounds which currently are tricky to get to feed through an AR magwell), or it may be that something else seems preferable.  I personally suspect that we won't see anything smaller/lighter than 62 grain 5.56mm selected, but it would be interesting to see what a blank slate, with no logistical tail or existing stocks of weapons and ammo to contend with, would result in.

It all comes down to how much better the bigger round is. If you can carry a 1/3 less rounds but only need 1/2 as many then you come out ahead. But if the larger round is less likely to jam that's something to think about too.

 
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Horsesoldier       4/5/2007 5:43:18 PM

We need to stop buying anymore of these crap guns.


M4/M16 have always worked just fine for me . . .
 
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Zerbrechen    Rounds that cause jams?   4/5/2007 10:22:27 PM




 

That is a more complicated equation, but it still runs into the fundamental point that, with current technology, we're just pushing around pluses and minuses.  I'd have to wonder that if every life saved by throwing a bigger bullet would not have a corresponding life lost because the shooter only had 25 or 26 rounds in the gun (or a smaller basic load carried overall), or was slightly slower transitioning to new targets due to recoil, and such.

 I'm not saying you lose one for reason B for everyone you save for reason A, but just that "bigger/heavier bullet" does not carry zero liabilities along with the plus of more thump on the bad guys.

I think that the recommendations that we keep what we've got as long as we're shooting cased cartridges makes sense (and I say that as enough of a fan of 6.8mm Rem SPC that I own a 6.8mm AR).  If/when (and it looks more like a 'when' at this point) we see the technology jump from conventional cartridges to caseless or cased telescoping ammunition, I'd hope we take a hard look at formulating an ideal small arms round, the hits an optimal balance of bullet weight, caliber, recoil, muzzle energy and the like.  It may be that 5.56mm puts in a good showing (caseless or CTA lets might allow use of heavy 90 grain rounds which currently are tricky to get to feed through an AR magwell), or it may be that something else seems preferable.  I personally suspect that we won't see anything smaller/lighter than 62 grain 5.56mm selected, but it would be interesting to see what a blank slate, with no logistical tail or existing stocks of weapons and ammo to contend with, would result in.



It all comes down to how much better the bigger round is. If you can carry a 1/3 less rounds but only need 1/2 as many then you come out ahead. But if the larger round is less likely to jam that's something to think about too.



Please explain how the size of the round determines whether the gun jams?
 
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Yimmy       4/6/2007 12:00:40 PM


Please explain how the size of the round determines whether the gun jams?


It does.

The larger the round, the more powder and the heavier the bullet, and so the more power and inertia to work the operating system.  The components also tend to be larger and heaveir, and so are less impacted by dirt and fouling.

 
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Rasputin       4/6/2007 1:38:47 PM
Any chance of developing some sort of plastic cartridge casing with a carbon fibre/kevelar bullet? It would most likely be a non-reloadable bullet!!!

Will that be lighter than the current bullets in use?


 
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Yimmy       4/6/2007 1:58:15 PM
Why would you want the bullet to be light?

You want the bullet to be as heavy as possible for its given size, so that it retains its momentum and energy down range.


 
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Horsesoldier       4/6/2007 3:15:42 PM
What Yimmy said, though a light construction, super high velocity round would have some merits inside, say, 100-150 meters or so (that is, essentially, what the FN 5.7mm round is, for instance).  You bleed off energy rapidly with a light bullet, though, so it would probably not work for a 0-300 or 0-500 meter sort of cartridge for a service rifle/carbine.
 
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Rasputin       4/7/2007 12:27:29 AM

Why would you want the bullet to be light?

You want the bullet to be as heavy as possible for its given size, so that it retains its momentum and energy down range.



Well if you do not want the bullet to be light, then leave it as it is, but perhaps the cratridge case may be lightened with non metallic materials to bring down the weight of the cartridge. ( After all, even nuclear missile fuselages are made of Kevlar)

Current conventional light bullet designs loose velocity quickly, perhaps there is a way to improve the ballistic design of the bullet tip or the entire bullet to improve it's flight charecteristics ( like the way Gerald Bull did to improve the design of his base bleed artillery shells) so with special cuts, bleeds or fins, the larger but lighter plastic/polymer/kevlar bullet head could still have the same flight charecteristics of conventional full metal jacketed lead bullets, while at the same time be used to lighten the overall weight of bullets.
 
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