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Subject: The Terminator
DarthAmerica    1/25/2007 1:19:48 AM
Wanna Make $652,000 USD? http://www.trainsaw.com/images/terminator.jpg"> A contest to build a robot that can operate autonomously in urban warfare conditions, moving in and out of buildings to search and destroy targets like a human soldier, was launched in Singapore on Tuesday. The country's Defence Science and Technology Agency (DSTA) is offering one million Singapore dollars ($652,000) to whoever develops a robot that completes a stipulated set of tasks – yet to be revealed – in the fastest time possible. DSTA said individuals, companies, universities and research institutes are all welcome to participate in the contest, dubbed the TechX Challenge, although foreigners must collaborate with local partners. "Operation in urban areas represents a significant challenge," DSTA chief executive Richard Lim said at the launch of the contest. "Recent military experiences in Iraq, the Middle East and other locations have clearly illustrated these challenges." Remote control Currently, robots deployed for urban warfare missions are normally operated remotely by a human, tying up resources, Lim said. DSTA wants to create a robot that "must, on its own, be able to navigate both indoors and outdoors in an urban landscape and accomplish a set of assigned tasks within a stipulated time", he said. This robot must be able to negotiate a staircase and use the elevator to dash from one floor to another without the aid of satellite navigation, which may not be available indoors. Navigation without satellite help would require the robot "to have machine vision capabilities to identify visual cues along its intended path to serve as waypoints", Lim said. Robert Richardson at the University of Manchester, UK, says the competition could present a major challenge to even the most sophisticated robot. He notes that robots can navigate through an "unrestricted urban environment", by building a virtual map of a 3D space with relative ease. Different doors But Richardson adds that slightly more complex tasks, like opening a door or using an elevator, can present a huge problem. "How do you know which button goes where, or even what floor you're on?" he says. "It's very, very confusing." One solution, he says, is to train a robot by presenting it with hundreds of different doors and elevators. Some defence experts say the fight against terrorism has made urban warfare increasingly common, and believe that high-tech weaponry could help minimise casualties. Participants must submit their applications by the end of May 2007 and a shortlist of participants will be announced in June 2007. The robots will be tested in a qualifying round in May 2008 and a final round, in August 2008, will crown the robot warrior that can complete the assigned task in the fastest time. I personally find this amazing. I still remember watching the Terminator Movie. The thought of an invincible Arnold hunting somebody down was both terrifying and fascinating at the same time. Now, very soon, such machines could become a reality. Imagine how that would change modern warfare as we know it! DA
 
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DarthAmerica       1/26/2007 2:21:15 PM
Perhaps the minefields of the future will not have mines, but roaming hunter killer droids engageing everything in a certain grid reference.
That threshold has already been crossed. Especially with naval warfare.

DA

Have you been dreaming again Darth?


I dream every night. Usually about Halle Berry. When I'm awake, and I mention that Naval Warfare has already crossed the threshold for "automated hunter killer" mines. I'm talking about stuff like this...

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/captor2.jpg">

"http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/mk60.htm"

Or even this...

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/ciws-label.jpg">

"http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-15.htm"


Or this...

"http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=22618"
------------------------------------------------------------------------

So indeed this is no dream. It's a reality in the realm of naval warfare. The transition to Land Based Autonomous operations is coming and is being driven by a desire to reduce cost and casualties in the increasingly Urbanized battlefields that coalition forces find themselves in. Yimmy, much of what I'm saying seems like science fiction. But these technologies are in reality already available to us.


DA




 
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Yimmy       1/26/2007 3:06:57 PM
No Darth, those are CIWS's and naval mines.

I mentioned hunter killer robots going around killing stuff on their turf.  In naval terms I guess that would mean an AI frigate, complete with CIWS and torpedos et al.


 
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Herald1234       1/26/2007 3:29:09 PM

No Darth, those are CIWS's and naval mines.

I mentioned hunter killer robots going around killing stuff on their turf.  In naval terms I guess that would mean an AI frigate, complete with CIWS and torpedos et al.


Take Guardium or its American equivalent.

http://www.defense-update.com/images/guardium-M-guard.jpg">

Combine it with SPYDER.

http://www.defense-update.com/images/spider.jpg">

And you have your robot border guard.

This is your first stage robot infantry, an area denial rover that patrols an exclusion/kill zone.

Herald


 
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DarthAmerica       1/26/2007 3:31:06 PM

No Darth, those are CIWS's and naval mines.

I mentioned hunter killer robots going around killing stuff on their turf.  In naval terms I guess that would mean an AI frigate, complete with CIWS and torpedos et al.

No, in Naval Terms it means just what I said. Go back and read my reference to it earlier. If you want an actual surface vessel then look here...

http://www.defense-update.com/images/Protector2.jpg">


...We are already here technologically. Especially in the Naval and Air environments. You won't see large unmanned surface combatants though because a complicated machine of that size(FF or larger) designed for long duration missions will require a crew to keep it running in a harsh maritime environment.

Autonomous ground robots with weapons will be the hardest step because the ground environment is so much more complicated. But we pretty much have the roads covered and autonomous road mobile vehicles are within reach...

"http://cimar.mae.ufl.edu/gatornation/Players.htm"

...I would say that by 2010-2015, every vehicle currently in use by any military could be made to run unmanned. Including using vehicle mounted weapons. But I already showed two systems that are mature enough hardware wise. Here is your droid Yimmy...

http://www.spacewar.com/images/metalstorm-40mm-grenade-bg.jpg">

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WWVHja7oDY"

I could say with certainly that it wouldn't take very long(weeks including debugging) to write the software to make this machine do what you described. Do you disagree?


DA


 
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DarthAmerica    Combat Challenge   1/26/2007 3:51:03 PM
Hey Yimmy, apologies in advanced if I'm sounding a bit confrontational. I'm just passionate about robotics and AI. Nothing personal. BTW, I want your opinion(and others) on something.

What if the US or UK government, DARPA or UK equivalent decided to run a test in Iraq or Afghanistan. Heck for sake of argument, assume its a joint classified project. The test consist of modifying existing robots with AI setup for autonomous combat operations along side friendly troops. Say for example a Stryker Company has its vehicles modified to communicate with the "droids" and control them remotely or monitor them autonomously. Lets say the droids are the Honda Biped and the metal storm mini-tank. Up armored of course to withstand up to 7.62mm N and with various small arms options as weapons. This unit is to set up a cordon of an area, a couple blocks, known to be occupied with insurgents or Taliban. It will use UAVs and Manned Helo's to monitor the ground and enemy communications. After the cordon is established, the robots will be sent in to attack and destroy the insurgents/Taliban, ignore non hostiles and do IFF to distinguish friendly infantry that will support them. Lets say that the goal is to do this test no lated than December 2007.

Do you think it's possible to attempt?

Do you think it would work?



DA


 
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Yimmy       1/26/2007 5:23:37 PM
I'll believe it when someone actually employs it, until then its all just a fictional wet dream.


 
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Yimmy       1/26/2007 5:34:10 PM
Darth, I am sure your idea would work, given enough time to de-bug the software et al.

After all, it really can't be too complicated to use our current "Blue force tracking" digital gear, our current IR / Thermal sensors, our current remote-control vehicles (as used in explosive ordnance disposal), our current M240 GPMG's, and comcercially available basic AI and programing to create a basic "patrol so-and-so area, see something hot, shoot it" droid.

However I am sure the moral and political angle would be a fair bit harder to grasp - especially where it came to rules of engagement.  Even if a human in the loop had to give the "go" - we all know that software goes wrong from time to time.

I realise such capabilities are coming into existance - but I do not see any nations using them in any war zones - and I hope the time we do see them in use is far away.  I like the old-fasioned view of infantry, and don't like the idea of man fighting robot.

Have you seen the B movie called "Screamers", about a future war on a distant plannet where one side creates droids, which basically go about killing everyone?  That is how I image droids evolving, and it aint pretty.


 
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DarthAmerica       1/26/2007 5:50:21 PM

Darth, I am sure your idea would work, given enough time to de-bug the software et al.

After all, it really can't be too complicated to use our current "Blue force tracking" digital gear, our current IR / Thermal sensors, our current remote-control vehicles (as used in explosive ordnance disposal), our current M240 GPMG's, and comcercially available basic AI and programing to create a basic "patrol so-and-so area, see something hot, shoot it" droid.

However I am sure the moral and political angle would be a fair bit harder to grasp - especially where it came to rules of engagement.  Even if a human in the loop had to give the "go" - we all know that software goes wrong from time to time.

I realise such capabilities are coming into existance - but I do not see any nations using them in any war zones - and I hope the time we do see them in use is far away.  I like the old-fasioned view of infantry, and don't like the idea of man fighting robot.

Have you seen the B movie called "Screamers", about a future war on a distant plannet where one side creates droids, which basically go about killing everyone?  That is how I image droids evolving, and it aint pretty.



Yimmy,

The killer drones are at war in the air. Granted they are controlled remotely when in actual combat. Also, I know the U.S. Army discussed a similar trial in Iraq using armed ground vehicles, but on a much smaller scale and with a man in the loop. Don't know the results.

I agree that once AI potential is realized it will be scary as hell to fight a robot. But I welcome it. Getting shot at isn't fun and if a robot can do some of the things I do now. I'm all for it. I haven't seen screamers but I'll be sure to watch it.

Thanks
DA

 
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DarthAmerica       1/26/2007 6:17:00 PM
Yimmy,

One other thing. I imagine some of the robots could be designed for heavy assaults against fortified positions. Remember the movie, The Terminator when the T-800 got into the resistance base and started slaughtering the people there? I can see that eventually being possible. But you know, I would actually be more afraid of a smaller sneakier robot like this...

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzfP0Ig7eVQ"

...something like that could get into a lot of places you would not think to look. It could have small caliber bullets and an explosive charge or chemical weapons. A dozen of those things crawling deployed against a terrorist hideout could slaughter them very quickly with minimal collateral damage. You could put several of them into a large ruck and deploy them ahead of you to do the dirty work. When they are done, you could order them to position themselves in places to provide surveillance/cover for you are you clear the area.

The good part is that only the most advanced nations could do this for a while due primarily to logistics and comms security. A terrorist counter measure could be to build a waveguide and fit it onto a microwave oven magnetron and use it as a HERF gun to fry them. Unless of course they are shielded.


DA

 
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Yimmy       1/26/2007 9:08:38 PM
Screamers is actually a fairly entertaining film.

The first robotss are man designed, and are like moles (small), they burrow through the ground at high speed, and then leap out when detecting an enemy and slice off limbs with a buzz saw.

Then one of the later droids when they evolved was a human kid look alike, who would cry his way into the base, and then go psycho and kill everyone.

I would rather see advancments in robotics being put to use in creating "power armour" etc for human soldiers, and as automation in tanks etc to reduce crews.  I don't like the thought of AI.


 
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