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Subject: Girly gun question
Cato    1/16/2006 4:19:47 PM
I'm investigating the purchase of a home firearm. The one criteria for said purchase is that the weapon must be easily usable by a rather small and not particularly mechanically inclined chick. So, sorry guys, the Desert Eagle .50 and broomhandle Mauser are out of the question. I'm thinking of a wheel-gun rather than one of the small-framed autos. Any suggentions regarding calibre and make/model would be greatly appreciated. Personal experience with reccommended weapon would also be greeted with many thanks. Thankee kindly, Cato
 
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Yimmy    RE:Girly gun question   1/25/2006 6:05:41 PM
I can't agree with you flamingknives. A pistol is a one handed weapon by definition, and is commonly used such. A carbine on the other hand is a two handed weapon, and is also braced by the shoulder. A rifle points far easier than a pistol, and remains pointing for any follow up shots. Pistols are good for dueling, nothing else.
 
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flamingknives    RE:Girly gun question   1/25/2006 6:54:42 PM
A rifle is only held into the shoulder when: a) the user is trained to do that. b) there is room to do it.
 
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eu4ea    RE:A few concrete suggestions.... and the four rules of gun-handling   1/25/2006 7:04:26 PM
Ya know, I'm *amazed*..... At how much agreement and civility there is over the suggestion that a gun may well *not* be the best (or ever "a good") solution for your girlfriend. Seriously, Cato, think it over. Most of us are gun nuts who love 'em, and work or play with them on a regular basis. For a group like this to tell you "you know, you really ought to look at options other than guns" means a LOT. Far more than if it were members of some anti-gun lobby telling you that. Think it over; most of the folks here are people who and love guns, yet these are the people suggesting that "a gun may well not be the right choice for your mechanically-disinklined girlfriend". Think it over. Give serious considerations to other, more effective and non-lethal choices (like a nice big dog, that's where I would start) Re, longrifle: You said ====== "Agreed. Up to a point. Guns are just part of the total package, not the be all end all of self defense. No rational person could evaluate the history and conditions of self defense shootings and conclude that guns are always the best answer. No rational person could evaluate the history and conditions of self defense shootings and conclude that guns are never the best answer." ======== I agree, heavily - I havent for a moment suggested that guns are never the best answer. However, you gotta look at the situation Cato is describing - a small, mechanically-disinclined woman handling the weapon under (presumably) heavy stress to fend off what she presumes are criminals in her home or workplace. That's got to be the *worst* possible for gun use. It's exactly the right scenario for people to die - typically herself, her husband, the plumber, her tenage son who snuck out at night past his curfew, etc., etc.. Under *those* circumstances, I'm confident to say "Cato, you ought to look at other solutions, because a gun is your rock-bottom choice." Statistically, her chances a 9-1 that she gets shot or shoots an aquaintance/family member rather than any presumed attacker. That's the hard fact here. If you think about it, it really isnt surprising. We all know guns are intensly dangerous on a good day - now picture in your mind a mechanically-disinclined untrained woman waving a pistol around the house, under heavy stress, at night trying to defend helself from noises she hears and thinks are some kind of attacker or criminal. You have *not* done that person any favours putting a gun in her hand. In my book, that's a recepie for disaster - for deaths in the family, for guilt, mourning, and wrecked lives. An *awful* choice, probably the worst. Re: guns, if you still *really* want to get one, I'd argue you should get the most non lethal gun you can find. You want the effect to be as close as possible to getting hit with a baseball bat - not a fast, hard *killing* bullet that would easily punch through your 16 year old, through the sheetrock and into your neighbours bedroom. That leaves a lot of what has been discussed out of the question. .357, 38, .25, five-seven, etc are designed for putting lethal holes through people's vital organs. Not what you want happening to your family. Instead, look at non-lethal shotgun loads with low powder loads (20 grams or less), and plastic or salt pellets, ideally with a really small wad. Put that into a short-barrel pump action shotgun. That gives you good reliability on the light loads (semiautos often jam under light loads), plus they are cheap and mechanically simple. The short barrel (no choke) will get you a huge dispersion on short ranges, and that plus the light powder load will contribute to make the effect of target non-lethal at close-in ranges. Plus, a short barrel will give it a blast and flash from *hell*, specially indoors. Anyone being shot at with that thing will feel they're being fired upon with a cannon and flee. Recoil shouldnt be a problem - I've seen youg girls firing 20 gram loads, and never having a problem with it. Of course, that gun will *suck* at hunting - if it can take down a rabbit at 10-15 yards, you're barrel's too tight ;). Re: sequnce, I'd probably load it up with two of those, followed by two light-load plastic slugs, and finally one size 5 unhardened steel shell (no lead, no tungsten and again a tiny powder load - the idea is that it should *not* go through walls) Hope that helps - dont get me wrong, such a gun will definitivelly kill someone at very short range, but beyond that it should be a *lot* safer. Chances are you or your daughter wont inmediatelly die if your wife shoots you with it, which is a lot more than can be said for most of the guns suggested so far. Take care, eu4ea
 
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Yimmy    RE:Girly gun question   1/25/2006 7:25:10 PM
"A rifle is only held into the shoulder when: a) the user is trained to do that. b) there is room to do it." --a) It is natural to hold a rifle into the shoulder, and takes less than 5 minutes to show someone how who is a little slow, whereas it is harder to adopt a good shooting stance with a pistol, which is more prone to being waved around in panic. --b) A carbine is little longer than your shoulders are broad, if you can stand up, you can shoulder a rifle. It takes up just as much room stretching out your arm to aim a pistol.
 
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Bigbro    RE:A few concrete suggestions....Yimmy   1/25/2006 7:57:45 PM
"I partly agree. I do not think getting a pistol is a good idea, as it is too easily taken off you, and too hard to aim and control. A nice light carbine like a Winchester lever rifle or M1 Carbine on the other hand, is perfect." Yimmy I think that my wife will disagree with you. Mater of fact I know she will. She has a Marlin 1894 in .44 mag. She likes it because it fits her and she shoots it well. However when I have to go out of town she wants her smith model 19 with 110gr hps on her night stand. With a weaver hold the arms are not at full extention. If some one is in your house they should be stopped well befor they get within arms reach. Rule of thumb is 21 feet is the limit that you let people into. Mind set, if the person is not willing and ready to use a firearm to defend themself they should not have a firearm for self-defense. Sorry if I am harsh today, just got back from a fun day at work. ;( Bb
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Girly gun question   1/25/2006 8:28:13 PM
>>I can't agree with you flamingknives. A pistol is a one handed weapon by definition, and is commonly used such. A carbine on the other hand is a two handed weapon, and is also braced by the shoulder. A rifle points far easier than a pistol, and remains pointing for any follow up shots.<< Anyone with rudimentary training in the employment of a pistol would be using it two handed. In this particular regard a woman who is not especially firearms friendly who can be talked into attending a basic pistol safety/marksmanship course actually probably has an advantage over, say, an 18 year old male new recruit into the military who might feel some urge to replicate the Jon Woo/Steven Seagal/50 Cent school of combat marksmanship and such. >>Pistols are good for dueling, nothing else.<< In the hands of a skilled user they can be quite deadly -- but even then there is a reason why they are considered secondary weapons. The problem is that becoming skilled with a pistol requires sound initial training followed by a decent amount of practice to stay proficient. In light of that, I'd be inclined to agree that a carbine (or shotgun) is a good choice for a rainy day sort of weapon that is not going to be getting a workout at the range on a regular basis.
 
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fitz    My preference for home defense purposes   1/25/2006 8:31:16 PM
...is a shotgun, not a handgun. All sorts of different loads you can buy depending on your needs.
 
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Yimmy    RE:A few concrete suggestions....Yimmy   1/25/2006 8:43:06 PM
Bigbro, no need to worry about whether your being harsh, I don't really care if people agree with me or not. :D I just think pistols are crap.
 
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hist_ed    RE:A few concrete suggestions....Yimmy   1/25/2006 8:58:37 PM
Since the subject of safety was brought up I will add that a pistol with the right ammo is a lot safer for your neighbors than a rifle (of course this is true of a carbine chambered for a pistol round). A rifle bullet could go through several of your neighbors' houses before stopping (perhaps in a neighbor). A pistol with a decent hollow point is not likely to do so. A shotgun (assuming you are not using slugs) is less likely that either to harm people outside your house. I will also say that any weapon you get for self defense should include training and practice-lots of practice for firearms. If you are not going to familiarize yourself with your gun then you have no business endangering others' lives by waving it around. Finally regarding the debate about who is more likely to be shot by guns: One thing overlooked is that in most armed homeowner vs criminal confrontations no one gets shot. The most likely result is a pointed firearm and fleeing criminal. If a gun is discharged it is often in the air or ground as a warning, also resulting in a fleeing (or captured) criminal.
 
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Yimmy    RE:A few concrete suggestions....Yimmy   1/25/2006 9:03:25 PM
"I will also say that any weapon you get for self defense should include training and practice-lots of practice" I guess I should take up golf again then! However, pistol bullets will likely actually go through more house materials than rifle bullets. I believed otherwise myself, but the evidence is out there if you search. It does make sense also, given a .45ACP round can push a 230grain bullet, while a 5.56mm round will push a 55grain bullet, which will fragment and alter course more due to its velocity.
 
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