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Subject: Under-mount shotgun
M4A3E2(76)W    8/8/2003 5:22:30 AM
I have read some posts on this board advocating mounting shotguns to assault rifles, like the way the M203 is mounted under the barrel. This doesn’t make any sense to me. What use would it be?
 
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M4A3E2(76)W    shotgun ammo   8/12/2003 3:41:55 PM
Even though I don’t like the idea of a shotgun mounted under a rifle barrel, a 12 gauge shotgun would come in handy at times. The biggest problem I have with shotguns is their very short range. An idea: How about a .30 cal sabot round for the 12 gauge? I don’t expect the accuracy to be equal to that of a rifle, but if a shotgun could hit a man size target with a .30 cal bullet at 300m then that would be fantastic!
 
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Zerbrechen    RE:shotgun ammo   8/13/2003 12:10:21 AM
If you are worried about 300m fighting range, bring a rifle... Bring a friend with a rifle.
 
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Nichevo    RE:Shotgun Shaka   10/13/2003 1:41:40 PM
Shotgun barrels don't depend on obturation or muzzle length in any way for power. A sawed-off is just as deadly as a duck gun. The only difference is shot dispersion which can always be governed by choke.
 
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:Shotgun Shaka ... Nichevo   10/13/2003 7:42:37 PM
Thanks for the info... "Shotgun Shaka", kinda catchy isn't it?
 
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macawman    RE:Shotgun Shaka ...    10/21/2003 11:07:49 AM
"Use a 20 ga. inplace of the 12 ga" I found this odd coming from the man who wants to bring the 16 in back :)
 
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Octogen    RE: Shotgun Shaka, et al.   10/22/2003 6:20:46 PM
Hi guys, I see we have another intriguing thread going regarding the ideal combination of KE calibers for a service rifle... perhaps the topic of terminal ballistics would deserve a forum section of its own! Anyway, here's a short response to the issue regarding the "military" shotgun... What advantages would a shotgun offer in this situation over a powerful rifle cartridge, say a 338 Winchester Magnum? Apart from the dubious military value of being able to launch "less lethal" projectiles, I can think of few advantages. I can, however, think of a few critical advantages that a 338WinMag caliber rifle would offer. The most important of these, is of course, body armor. The most powerful 12-gauge rifled slug will fail to pierce even soft Level IIIA armor. A tungsten-carbide cored round from a 338WM rifle will completely perforate, at any angle, a Level IV ceramic plate, with or without kevlar backing, at any practical range. I do not have figures for this, but I would not be surprised if such a round could penetrate as much as 25mm RHAe. Similarly, a light soft point round from the 338 would be quite devastating in terms of wound ballistics against a target (without hard armor) at close range. I doubt that it would offer any less performance than a shotgun slug in this respect. Recoil of the 338 would not be more, and would probably be considerably less than the heavier 12-gauge slug loads. I also must concur with the gentleman who stated that police use of a shotgun over a "big bore" rifle is due to liability purposes only. At least, I would be intrigued to know what advantages a 12-gauge could ever offer, clay pigeon shooting an duck hunting aside. :) Greetings from Europe, and, as they say, God bless America. Octogen (Biologist and shaped-charge fanatic)
 
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:Shotgun Shaka ... macawman   10/22/2003 6:30:52 PM
Well, I'll try to explain why I wanted to lessen the recoil. Most (all?) undermount weapons have a seperate trigger. You end up with the magazine being a ad-hoc handle and use the trigger with your off-hand. It makes its very uncomfortable. Since the whole point of this weapon is to give me something for close in use, the last thing I need is alot of recoil (heaven forbid, I might hurt my fingers!). If the above problem has been solved, one way or another, then give me the 12 gauge.
 
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Zerbrechen    RE: Shotgun Shaka, et al.   10/22/2003 10:16:11 PM
A .223 REM would penetrate my IIIa vest, including the hard trauma plate (It tells me so right on it). In fact, most any rifle would do so. Many vests had a hard time stopping the 7.62X25 mm. Other advantages of a 12 gauge shotgun include: You can have a very effective close-quarters weapon. Some agencies have Benneli's with 12" barrels which are quite handy for inside buildings. Buckshot for better hit probability. Large, gaping bore for people to look down when you are ordering them to put their hands where you can see them. The pump action - yes, that universal sound of a pumpgun being racked can make an entire building freeze. Multiple loads - Flechettes, Dragons Breath, Buckshot, Slug, Sabot, Less-Lethal, Bird Bombs... The list goes on. And, pehaps most importantly... Cost of ammunition. I would like to "stop" my opponent as cheaply as possible. Just out of curiosity, Octogen, are you certain that a 338 WM would zip through a IV plate from any angle? Ours will stop a 30-06 AP at point-blank. Do they make tunston carbide points for .338's?
 
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eightyone    Octogen   10/22/2003 11:26:22 PM
I take it you've never fired a rifle chambered in .338 Winchester Magnum. If you had you would know that the best way to describe its recoil is that it is PUNISHING to say the least. And yes it does have a heavier recoil than the 12 gauge. Remember, the .338 WM is a big game hunting round. When I fired it it was from a Browning A-Bolt with 26-inch barrel. Not exactly something you'd want to lug around during MOUT. Not to mention the fact that the .338 would definitely have an over penetration problem. .338 as a sniper round? Sure. The .338 as a room broom ? Not on your life. I'd much prefer the shotgun if I were clearing a building. In my opinion a undermounted shotgun would seem a little bit awkward. Better to keep it as a separate weapon system. As for ammo Slugs for breaching, 00 buckshot for badguys. Good ol' 12 gauge, beauty in simplicity.
 
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ChdNorm    RE:Octogen   10/23/2003 4:20:30 AM
Me personally, I cant think of a more awkard and ungainly arrangement. A shotguns only real (to me at least) CQB advantage is its almost instinctive pointability and general handling characteristics. If its to be mounted like a 203 ... pick up a 203 and see how instinctive it feels. I do remember seeing something like you are talking about offered for sale in shotgun news several years ago ... late 80s or early 90s maybe? It appeared to be exactly what the Indian guy (sorry for the political in-correctness there) carried in the movie Predetor. Maybe thats why I thought it was cool back when i was 16 and saw it!
 
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