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Subject: Russian T90 vs. US M1A2 Abrams
achtpanz    6/14/2004 3:59:14 AM
Russian T90 vs American M1A2 Abrams - Which is better? If these tanks fought in battle, which would suffer more casualties, which one is superior? What are their advantages? Any information would be helpful.
 
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SantaClaws       4/3/2011 7:44:30 PM
Actively engaged doing what? Installing missiles that didn't exist? Using FBCB2 that didn't exist? Everyone of your stories is full of shit. It's obvious you've never been in the military.
 
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SantaClaws       4/3/2011 8:02:48 PM
Spoken like a true fuckwit who's never been in. The Army values every soldier and does it best to safe guard lives. Equipment is not more important than personnel.




You can't use reactive armor in close quarters where it could injure fellow soldiers or civilians close to the M-113 if the reactive armor went off. Are you sure you're in the military?





Think about what you just said. If an RPG went off near you you are dead anyway making your statemment invalid. Fact is the eqyuipment is more valuable than the soldier. The soldier is easier to replace.

 
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heraldabc    Don't use Wiki   4/3/2011 8:03:08 PM
h**p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-92_Stinger
 
The block I was developed in 1996, 5 years after the first Gulf War. Maybe you should have wiki'ed it first retard. So you put these stingers on Apaches in the first Gulf War 5 years before the missile was even made, huh?
 
First prototype shoulder fired version weapon-proofed by 1978. 
 
First kills in Falklands War.
 
First large scale use first Afghan war.
 
C and D models late 1980s.
 
Helo tests mid 80s and then THIS and THIS.
 
" The first combat use of the basic STINGER weapon system by U.S. troops occurred with the deployment of 27 STINGER teams in the U.S. airborne assault against Cuban and local forces on the Caribbean island of Grenada on 25 October 1983. The system also proved very effective against first line Soviet combat aircraft in Afghanistan. According to a comprehensive 1999 study [by Alan J. Kuperman], some of the estimated 900 to 1,200 Stingers delivered to Afghanistan in the 1980s were diverted while en route through Pakistan. Deployed during both Operation Just Cause and Operation Desert Storm [ODS], the STINGER-RMP provided highly mobile and lethal short range air defense protection to the maneuver forces during the Gulf War. There were also 66 OH-58C Army scout helicopters equipped with air-to-air STINGER deployed during ODS. "
 
 As I said, this is MY area, Santa.
 
Herald

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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SantaClaws       4/3/2011 8:09:44 PM
Yah, but they're not put on Apaches.
 
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Slim Pickinz       4/3/2011 8:14:05 PM





You can't use reactive armor in close quarters where it could injure fellow soldiers or civilians close to the M-113 if the reactive armor went off. Are you sure you're in the military?





Think about what you just said. If an RPG went off near you you are dead anyway making your statemment invalid. Fact is the eqyuipment is more valuable than the soldier. The soldier is easier to replace.

Try telling that to the American public.
 
And about your reactive armor comment: from wiki (yea i know, but im too tired to find a more credible site right now)
 
A further complication to the use of ERA is the inherent danger to anybody near the tank when a plate detonates (disregarding that a HEAT warhead explosion would already present a great danger to anybody near the tank). Although ERA plates are intended only to bulge following detonation, the combined energy of the ERA explosive, coupled with the kinetic or explosive energy of the projectile, will frequently cause explosive fragmentation of the plate. The explosion of an ERA plate creates a significant amount of shrapnel, and bystanders are in grave danger of serious or fatal injury. As a result, infantry needs to operate some distance from vehicles protected by ERA in combined arms operations.
 
So yea, the RPG impact does a danger to dismounted infantry, but the danger is significantly compounded by the explosion of the ERA plates. That's why slat armor is better for situations where infantry has to operate close to the vehicles, or when civilians are nearby (basically any urban scenario). It's also MUCH less expensive.
 
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SantaClaws       4/3/2011 8:22:31 PM
BTW, I never said anything about the 58 carrying stingers. I said the missile wasn't used on the Apache. The Apache was tested with the ATAL system, which wasn't even developed until after 1996. So I didn't say anything that was incorrect, Herald.
 
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Nichevo       4/3/2011 8:33:11 PM

I don't know about Apaches, Santa, but I do know that OH-58s practiced with Stingers against RPV training drones and as part of their scout mission had a capability to engage enemy helos a2a.   

 

An Apache Longbow could easily do the same, just cue the Stinger onto the target.

 

As for P/U trucks, not impossible since it has a hot hood to hit, easy to see look-down  contrasted against a cold backdrop (ground at night). A P/U truck-especially a Toyota is not much tougher than a helo and a Stinger would shred it easy. (500,000+ joules work in rocket when it hits you + HE warhead= ~ about 1 MJ, are you kidding me here?)   


 

H.


OK...I did about three katas of google-fu on this...
 
Stinger is carried on Predator-C and perhaps others, I found nothing citing carriage on Apache (did not look that hard, assume it is a matter of record whether or no, doesn't seem impossible - aerodynamics on a helo, c'mon http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emwink.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" alt="" />). 
 
From the potency aspect, Stinger should dice a truck or LAV nicely and maybe soft-kill a tank on a good day - warhead and warhead fuzing a possible issue - but apparently it has a target acquisition mode referred to as "superelevation" which apparently makes it unsuitable for ground attack.  However the latest Block I and II (which was not mfgd) do not do this (superelevation) and thus theoretically could engage ground targets.  Whether they do or not IDK.  I imagine they might track a hot exhaust or car hood fairly well but again IDK.

And that there has never been helo-to-helo action doesn't mean there never will.  There's never been a nuclear war between peers, doesn't mean we don't plan for it.
 
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SantaClaws       4/3/2011 8:40:40 PM
Helicopters don't engage other helicopters. Helos are extremely maneuverable and can mask themselves behind terrain. My turn rate in a 60 is higher than a Hind or 64. If either tried to engage me I could continuously out turn them and disengage until they went bingo fuel. It's simply not worth the effort to do a helo on helo battle. Using ADA or fast movers to engage helos is another story.
 
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heraldabc       4/3/2011 8:43:06 PM

Yah, but they're not put on Apaches.

I never said they were, whereas you said, that the missiles did not exist at all with their special twin missile launcher pod and the bus interface adapter for said wing pod mounr for target capture and aim cuing through an optical sight. Stinger on an Apache was not doctrinal as that was not the Apache'as mission. The Apacje is flying rocket artillery. The OH-58 as a helo scout was supposed to not only scout targets for us, but also was to kill enemy scouts trying to do the same-including those on the GROUND and in the AIR.
 
Out of 70 mm rockets, no Hellfires or TOWS? Now  MG versus MG? Don't be silly. You see a technical or a GAZ snooping around? Mister STINGER can reach farther and tap him harder than Mister enemy Machine Gun can reach you.
 
In fact shot from the top of the old gravity well and the Stinger should easily out-range whatever version of Strela, Gopher or Gaskin that fool on the ground had launched at you before you killed him.     
 
OH-58s made good mobile adhoc SAM units as well as scouts.
 
I would not be surprised if an OH-58 used a  STINGER, or two and plinked a P/U truck. Against a BMP? Not sure that would work. The thing hits with the wallop of a small howitzer shell, but that's kind of iffy.  
 
Improvise. A guided missile is a guided missile.As long as it can steer to meet the signal, it doesn't care what it hits.
 
Herald
 
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heraldabc       4/3/2011 8:47:18 PM

Helicopters don't engage other helicopters. Helos are extremely maneuverable and can mask themselves behind terrain. My turn rate in a 60 is higher than a Hind or 64. If either tried to engage me I could continuously out turn them and disengage until they went bingo fuel. It's simply not worth the effort to do a helo on helo battle. Using ADA or fast movers to engage helos is another story.

 
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