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Subject: Russian T90 vs. US M1A2 Abrams
achtpanz    6/14/2004 3:59:14 AM
Russian T90 vs American M1A2 Abrams - Which is better? If these tanks fought in battle, which would suffer more casualties, which one is superior? What are their advantages? Any information would be helpful.
 
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heraldabc    Popcorn time.    3/30/2011 12:11:26 AM
Argument reduced to three, now.

By the way, Santa, I have a question for you, "Why did you miss Uh-oh's caliber error on the M-1's main gun?"
 
No pretense here.
 
Herald     
 
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Nichevo       3/30/2011 12:12:07 AM

Aren't you lucky, you don't have to back your words up to me in person, coldmush?

 

That's the beauty of the US invented internet. Across the physical safety of the transoceanic interval at near the speed of light, an insignificant ignorant prevaricator, like you, who threaten strangers uselessly, from the safety of your bad manners and physical distance , with meaningless noise, when your lack of honesty is pointed out there for all others to read, can use this tool to bleat uselessly.

 

Its a shame that honest folk have to put up with such trash, but such is the glory of the freedom WE gave to the world.

 

Funny that your people never could invent it.      

 

Much like the tank, the mass-production car, the elevator, skyscrapers  the time controlled railroad network, the entire modern electrical power technology base (100% AMERICAN, look at ALL of the 1890s patents), air brakes  the modern rocket, the airplane, the telephone, mass industrial production, the helicopter, the telegraph, the submarine, the computer, the modern wet-heater torpedo,  Automatic guidance logics^1,  Pittsburgh steel, etc.   

 

Poor guy. Must be grating to go through life with such a national inferiority complex


   


^1` Can you guess why I underlined that, Coldmush?

Nyet, tovarishch, do not be silly.  Russians we invented all these things.  Plus baseball.  And sex.  Da, eta pravilno!
 
 
ColdStart, it is a waste of your time to fear and hate the United States.  We are so far beyond your level that we would not even condescend to attack you.  You need to worry about your immediate neighbors.  They are the ones who want to take your stuff, kill your men and screw your women.  And who will, once your population decreases sufficiently and the rest of the moral fiber of your society rots away.

We would actually like to help you.  The greatness of the historic Russian nation cannot be denied.  However its many, equally historic flaws cannot be denied, cannot be hidden, cannot be ignored any longer.  Your brave words defending the Russian honor as you see it - they are a bandage over an infected wound.  You must do a difficult thing.  You must rip off this concealment and expose the rot so that it can be treated and if need be cut away. 
 
Herald is insulting but he is easily 80% right.  When you are 80% right you don't have to kiss ass.
 
Forget about facing the M1 or other Western tanks.  Russian military hardware exists to serve the West as live target dummies.  Against well operated Western hardware, Russian boys can only hope to die screaming in clouds of stinking black smoke.  Try and make sure you can defeat whatever may be the new Chinese tank, the new Chinese fighter plane (yes, copied from the Russian - which you foolishly sold to them - but also often improved and better quality).  And look to your counterterrorism operations.  Have you caught all the perpetrators of Beslan yet?  (AFAIK, no.) 
 
 
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GeorgeSPatton    @Santa   3/30/2011 1:04:18 AM
 Please, don't sit back from the safety of your couch and pretend as if you understand the culture or what is being taught, or the manner it is being taught until you actually do it. I don't go around pretending to be a rocket scientist or doctor or that I know their culture or as if how I know how they should run medical school when I have zero experience.
 
And I would ask you to please, don't talk to me as if I am a child.  I am here to learn, and thus far I haven't posted anything outside of what I know technically and from what I have heard talking with and being around people who have served and are serving in the military.  I can back up everything I've said thus far.  The T-72->T-80->T-90 thing is a common mistake, but not by an armour MOS who is made up to date of current possible enemies.  My drill sergeant's son was a tank commander in the Gulf.  You want to correct me? Fine, but please do it in a respectful manner.  I'm assuming we're all adults here.  I'm not BW or FS, don't talk to me like I am.
 
And your last comment...He's an Apache pilot. He's the scariest thing in the sky. And if you knew anything about the Apache to make comments about his behavior being foolish, then you would know that they are both pilots, not a pilot and gunner. Like I said, don't comment about things you don't have the slightest clue about.

I am not ignorant, both crewmwn are qualified pilots, but only one flies the helo.  That makes him the pilot of the airframe at that time.  The copilot acts as the gunner/fire control officer for most of the weapons systems.  Whe I said pilot and gunner, that is who I was talking about.  I assumed you would also know the difference.  Regardless, that has nothing to do with the fact that what the pilot did was stupid, and actions like that have the potential (however unlikely) to cause harm to the machine and crew.  In combat you give the enemy as little of an advantage as possible, no matter how "scary" you are.  You don't need to be a veteran to know that.
 
let me be a bit more blunt. An armor guy is probably going to tell you that in his M1 Abrams he will see the T90 first because he has better optics. He will shoot first because he has a better gun and more range. He will kill the T90 outside of the T90's effective range and  that T90 crew will die.
 
I won't argue with that, I have been saying it since I first posted on this thread.
 
I would call that a gross underestimation of our enemy's capabilities. And that scenario is fact.
 
Agreed, however as has been pointed out time and time again, combat is very different from two tanks driving towards one another at high noon shooting it out by themselves.
 
Yes, I suppose they could throw in there don't drive in reverse towards the T90 while holding fire and park yourself 100m in front of it and wait for it to shoot you so he could teach your "balanced" lesson, but that'd be a waste of time.
 
I would call assuming that the only circumstances the T-90 could kill and Abrams is from 100m away and behind a gross underestimation of the enemy's capabilities, wouldn't you?
 
You want your balanced lesson plan? I'll use the first Gulf War as an example. Iraq had recent Russian equipment and were veterans of the Iran war which lasted a decade. They were the 5th largest army in the world at the time. We crushed Iraq in a 2 week ground campaign. 300,000+ dead on their side and ~200 on ours. We're "overconfident" because the US military is so damn good a balanced lesson (an
 
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ColdStart    ok   3/30/2011 1:04:23 AM




 

 We are so far beyond your level that we would not even condescend to attack you.
 
Sure your militaries are smart, they understand what will happen to USA if you gona attack Russia.

 
 Russian military hardware exists to serve the West as live target dummies. 
 
Another desperate belief of American kid. You shoot outdated T72 and show (lie) to your citizens that you are doing a good job in defense. Dream on...


 

Go ahead...what comes next..
 
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SantaClaws       3/30/2011 1:04:24 AM

Argument reduced to three, now.





By the way, Santa, I have a question for you, "Why did you miss Uh-oh's caliber error on the M-1's main gun?"

 

No pretense here.


 

Herald     


"120mm-smoothbore cannon that the M1A2 abrams uses "
 
What caliber error?
 
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SantaClaws       3/30/2011 1:14:23 AM




I am not ignorant, both crewmwn are qualified pilots, but only one flies the helo.  That makes him the pilot of the airframe at that time.  The copilot acts as the gunner/fire control officer for most of the weapons systems.  Whe I said pilot and gunner, that is who I was talking about.  I assumed you would also know the difference.  Regardless, that has nothing to do with the fact that what the pilot did was stupid, and actions like that have the potential (however unlikely) to cause harm to the machine and crew.  In combat you give the enemy as little of an advantage as possible, no matter how "scary" you are.  You don't need to be a veteran to know that.

 

 

Just the same, it would be foolish to assume that we could go to war with a more advanced enemy, like China or Russia, and expect the same results.  Would the US win? Yes.  Would it be as easy as GS1-2? No, and it is foolish to expect it to be.  This isn't one of Tom Clancy's books.



Really? "His actions have potential to cause harm to him and his crew?" At what altitude was he flying at? At what airspeed? What was the visibility? What weapons are the enemy employing against him? I'll give you a hint, the 64 flies a lot higher than an RPG or AK74 can shoot. There is a reason why he flies without fear, and anyone stupid enough to shoot at him would regret that decision for a short time. He's an Apache pilot. His job is to hunt and kill. If someone is dumb enough to reveal themselves then they made his job a lot easier.
 
Russia, China, whoever. The US is the only country to employ stealth fighters and a large amount of cruise missiles to incapacitate both radar and comms. The same scenario would play out in any war. The US will gain air superiority within the first weeks. They would then use that to annihilate any ground forces. You can try to argue how different it would be against X country but it won't. The technology gap is so far in the US' favor coupled with our ability to deliver a massive initial attack it's going to play out exactly the same.
 
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ColdStart    ok   3/30/2011 1:15:04 AM
George, i do not underestimate China (and anyone else), but their systems are for now far away from state-of-the-art. They tried to copy our S-300-PMU1, and they stil could not do it well... their analog does not detect targets over 70km effectively. And they still rely on some of the older air defense equipment bought from Russia. Our systems have demonstrated how they have been shooting down a missile (another air defense missile of OSA complex) right almost above the ground. (Kashtan-M navy ship air defence complex demonstrated the interception of anti-tank missile flying less than 5 meters above sea) To a person understanding something in radars it tells alot. China/Iran/N.K/India. have nothing close to that yet.
 
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ColdStart    ok   3/30/2011 1:17:16 AM

 
The US will gain air superiority within the first weeks. They would then use that to annihilate any ground forces.
 
Read my previous message and a list of countries against which this WILL work.
 
You can try to argue how different it would be against X country but it won't.

It will actually. Read about interception of low-altitude flying targets.

 
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SantaClaws       3/30/2011 1:27:31 AM
An Arleigh Burke can carry almost 100 tomahawks. A Tico can carry about 120. We have a lot of both. That doesn't even factor in that no country can reliably shoot down our stealth fighters.  Good luck.
 
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ColdStart       3/30/2011 1:43:44 AM

 That doesn't even factor in that no country can reliably shoot down our stealth fighters.  Good luck.

In a childish way throw out about stealth and totally ignore what i said about interception of low flying targets. It means you understand nothing at all in radar operation and issues of detection and understand nothing in electromagnetics.
 
If a system can shoot down an antitank missile right above the sea, it means that its signal processing hardware has huge detection capabilities and is capable to discriminate target from a strong sea clutter. Also, antitank missile's radar cross section is very slow, plus its speed is very high.
 
Go and continue dreaming, that given a system with such capabilites wont be able to detect "stealth" aircraft. 
 
Your stealth was shot down by KVADRAT system, an export version of Russian air defense developed in 1960s. The only thing is those systems are really old, and have low probability of detection. In case of systems described above, things gona be totally different.
 
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