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Subject: Russian T90 vs. US M1A2 Abrams
achtpanz    6/14/2004 3:59:14 AM
Russian T90 vs American M1A2 Abrams - Which is better? If these tanks fought in battle, which would suffer more casualties, which one is superior? What are their advantages? Any information would be helpful.
 
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ColdStart       4/12/2011 7:52:09 PM

kids focus on what goes bang and ignore critical vectors such as logistics, integration with other systems and support structures, training, even governance (political will and intent)



topic initially was stated as comparison of two tanks, not logistics and integration of systems, Mr.Moderator from another forums.
 
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ColdStart    ok   4/12/2011 7:54:46 PM
and also you cant just blame me for this, you can pretty well see what kind of shit was posted to an address of Russia here by some personalities. At least i never did go that bad on a nationalistic level.
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       4/12/2011 8:05:23 PM


or you can put it in a simpler way: ban anyone who is from Russia/USSR, or anyone else who thinks that US is not the only country who can design weapons.

That would be more honest.

my last on this to you as this statement deserves countering

but, thanks for publicly demonstrating your maturity.

we don't ban russians, we have a russian mod as well

its kids like you that give russians a bad name when you behave like a petulant 14 yo

/ignore on

 
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SantaClaws       4/12/2011 8:09:20 PM



And you're the one who said the Ak47 is a useless rifle. I just agreed with you. It's indicative of everything else produced by Russia. They can't get a simple 50+ year old rifle right, and you expect us to believe they can build tanks and planes? HAH!



I would't exactly call the AK-47 a useless rifle.  For what it is it's one of the most reliable weapons around, even today.  I think the AK-47 vs M-16 comparison is one of the best examples of the differences between East/West military equiptment:

One one hand you have the precise, more complicated, more accurate, and longer-range M-16.  Its design clearly emphasized semi-auto fire over full-auto fire.  It was more easy to damage and required more maintenance by the average soldier. (rapier)

On the other hand you have the rugged, simple, heavy-hitting AK.  Its design clearly favored full-automatic over semi, and while less accurate it fired a much larger and more powerful bullet.  It required almost no maintenance to operate and was almost impossible to jam. (bludgeon)

You can see the Western emphasis on a rapier vs a bludgeon in just about all of their equiptment.  Western tech is more sophisticated, but more complex and requires more training to use, while in the East there is an emphasis on functionality, power, and simplicity, mainly for use by the simple, poorly-trained conscript.  They don't build bad stuff, just "good enough" to get the mission done (which sometimes works out better than the techie stuff).

Oh! Someone who actually wants to have a real verbal debate.
 
 Compare the M16 to the AK 47.
 
Rounds, The M16 has a higher muzzle velocity and a smaller round which will penetrate all soft body armor and up to level 3 + sapi plates. The AK rounds will be stopped by the sapi plates at point blank range for 3-5 shots. And a round to the heart or head is an instant kill with either weapon, so what really matters is shot placement. The M16 is good for point targets up to 300m for the average infantry soldier. Higher for better shooters. The AK, 50-100m point targets at best.
 
Ergonomics the AK is lacking as well. The safety is located in the trigger well by pushing out and requires that the user remove one hand to remove the weapon from safe to fire. The M16 requires you move your thumb while maintaining both hands on the weapon. You may not think this is a big deal, but for room clearing and stacking, you want everyone to be on safe until they bring their weapons up and engage targets. Yeah, you can go in weapons hot, but if that's the case then you stand in front of me in the stack. 
 
Then, the magazine release on the ak requires you take your hand off and grab the clip and pull. Then you have to take that same hand to get a new mag to reload. The charging handle is on the right side so have fun with switching hands or rolling the AK over to charge the round with your left hand if you're using that to reload. The M16 you take your trigger finger and press the magazine release and the mag drops due to gravity. In the mean time your left hands already has a new mag and is ready to reload and the bolt release is located on the left side. Who is going to reload faster?
 
Generally speaking, professional soldiers use the M16. Conscripts and cannon fodder (Russian infantry) use the AK.
 
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SantaClaws       4/12/2011 8:14:39 PM



And you're the one who said the Ak47 is a useless rifle. I just agreed with you. It's indicative of everything else produced by Russia. They can't get a simple 50+ year old rifle right, and you expect us to believe they can build tanks and planes? HAH!

exactly. thats why in Vietnam your soldiers being equipped with M16 tried to take any first chance to get AK47 to go on with.


Did you know that some African nations use monkeys to clear mine fields? They train the monkeys to run in straight lines until they hit a mine.
 
Utilizing similar training methods, most likely banana feeding and positive reinforcement, the Russian military trains their conscripts to carry AKs and run into enemy fire until they are shot.
 
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ColdStart       4/12/2011 8:15:27 PM





or you can put it in a simpler way: ban anyone who is from Russia/USSR, or anyone else who thinks that US is not the only country who can design weapons.



That would be more honest.





my last on this to you as this statement deserves countering


but, thanks for publicly demonstrating your maturity.


we don't ban russians, we have a russian mod as well


its kids like you that give russians a bad name when you behave like a petulant 14 yo


/ignore on


sure. even if its Russian, he must have same opinion as you do :) anyhow...
 
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SantaClaws       4/12/2011 8:18:39 PM
Oh, last thing about maintenance with the M16. 6 years in the Army and the M16 has only jammed on me once and I have drug it through hell. The one time it did jam was because I had a quarter sized rock stuck in the firing chamber. Most of the malfunctions are caused either by people loading 30 rounds into the mags or the soft ends on the mags causing double feeds. But that's not the fault of the weapon.
 
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ColdStart    ok   4/12/2011 8:19:51 PM







And you're the one who said the Ak47 is a useless rifle. I just agreed with you. It's indicative of everything else produced by Russia. They can't get a simple 50+ year old rifle right, and you expect us to believe they can build tanks and planes? HAH!



exactly. thats why in Vietnam your soldiers being equipped with M16 tried to take any first chance to get AK47 to go on with.






Did you know that some African nations use monkeys to clear mine fields? They train the monkeys to run in straight lines until they hit a mine.

 

Utilizing similar training methods, most likely banana feeding and positive reinforcement, the Russian military trains their conscripts to carry AKs and run into enemy fire until they are shot.

first of all...i dont think its appropriate now start M16 vs Ak47... lets just not do it...  come on? gona change opinion of whole world? .....uhh....
 
 
and second... your statements are full of underestimation, racism and hate to Russia, and you are not a right person to criticise them in such a shitty way. 
 
 
some people here claim and try to point out on me being such a negative person... but hey!! look at what this Santa writes? why is that being ignored then? WHY?
 
oh i know why... cuz hes American (or British or whateva other country...dont care). 
 
 
so...gf12 (or whats ur nick)... your proposed RULES here...are failed! they are being constantly violated by people like Santa, and others....
 
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       4/12/2011 8:27:22 PM


sure. even if its Russian, he must have same opinion as you do :) anyhow...


that kind of infantile response demonstrates your maturity more than anything else said to date.

grow up

 
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SantaClaws       4/12/2011 8:27:46 PM

first of all...i dont think its appropriate now start M16 vs Ak47... lets just not do it...  come on? gona change opinion of whole world? .....uhh....

 

 

and second... your statements are full of underestimation, racism and hate to Russia, and you are not a right person to criticise them in such a shitty way. 

 

 

some people here claim and try to point out on me being such a negative person... but hey!! look at what this Santa writes? why is that being ignored then? WHY?


 

oh i know why... cuz hes American (or British or whateva other country...dont care). 

 

 

so...gf12 (or whats ur nick)... your proposed RULES here...are failed! they are being constantly violated by people like Santa, and others....



Instead of deflecting the question maybe you should actually try to defend why Russia trains their military like apes. Do you honestly think Russia can produce more conscripts than the US economy can produce bullets and ship them over to kill them in their suicide waves? Terrible strategic and tactical solutions for the Russians, but hey whatever. If you can't make up for it in intellect and real strategy, blunt force works, too.
 
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