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Subject: top 10 tanks in the world!!!
Hong-Xing    8/12/2003 9:07:05 AM
i think it would be this t-90 (rus) m1a2 (usa) t-98 (chi) m1a1 (usa) Challenger 2 (bri) t-95 black hawk (rus) al khalid (chi) merkeva (bra) arjun (ind) t-90||| (chi)
 
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Jeffrey    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! - Horsesoldier   2/24/2004 2:07:21 PM
2 people are drivers on a tank as you said,but they had experience as a gunner too,as a gunner they tell you more about the armor than the other crewman i think (except comander) I know it doesn't make real sence about the ''hallow'' armor,but if KMW and ''some other people'' say that its hallow im convinced. :>)
 
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Heorot    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! - Horsesoldier   2/24/2004 2:16:05 PM
Jeffery, I take it that you didn't study maths or physics to a high level at school or you would know that your claim about hollow (not hallow) armour is ridiculous.
 
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Rubicon    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! hollow, etc   2/24/2004 2:58:43 PM
Hahah. Well if you hit a hull of a submarine with a hammer you get a hollow sound also. Come on. Whatever. For every new armor design there was a new gun/bullet/shell design that penetratd it since the introduction of gunpowder. The fact of the matter is armor, will realistically be one step behind, because each new design has to accomodate all types of threats, including newer ones. And anyway, the basic point of penetrators, DU rounds, is punch through armor in a limited area and kill the crew. With a dead crew the even best armor in the world is useless.
 
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PuckaMan    Armchairs and CITVs.....   2/24/2004 4:47:18 PM
Jeffry, I'm an 'Armchair General', who when I finish my university degree, will be a tankie - (Preferably a commissioned one, but I'll settle for enlisted) and I like to think of myself pretty clued up on military stuff, particualrly tanks. But I'm not fool enough to contradict or challenge someone like mike_golf and an ex Canuck Leo Jockey on technical and operational stuff, 'cause I know that most likely, I'd be wrong, lose respect and look like a total tool. The chair/stool in front of your Computer is quite different to looking through a CITV taking out the garbage is different to breaking tread. So, basically what I'm saying is, given a choice out of believing you and mike, the EXPERIENCED person will have my ear. No insult intended, just pull your finger out, alright mate? Pucka
 
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Ex98C    RE:Armchairs and CITVs.....   2/24/2004 9:10:48 PM
Well I"m going to support Jeffery..sorta. Not disagreeing at all with the esteemed ex-tankers in the group as they know far more about the subject than I, but might Jeffery be talking about a varient of "spaced" armor? As I remember (and I could definately be wrong) "spaced" armor was developed in the 80s it wasan outer layer of steel over an open space then either steel or a composit. The theory behind it was to set off the shaped charge HE warhead before it made contact with the main armor and disperse its effect somewehat. Has anyone else heard of this ror am i just lossing my mind? :)
 
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PuckaMan    Spaced Armour....   2/24/2004 9:27:28 PM
My knowledge of this particularly limited, but I think you are correct Ex98c, the spaced or 'hollow' armour concept was a logical attempt to increase protect against shaped charged and HEAT type rounds. I believe it is no obsolete, with new genration Chobham and Laminates appearing. From what I gathered, this whole tiff was about KE versus Spaced armour - an APFSDS would rip through Spaced armour quite Easily, the space offering no protectecion whatsoever against KE projectiles. Hopefully mike or Canuck Tankie can back me up on this, but from what I've been able to pick up on this, a hard, enegy dissapating armour is best for that - a combination of RHA, Chobham Ceramics, and if you're a Dracula driver, that Stainless Steel encased Depleted Uranium as well. More/harder mass to get through, the better, for someone on the recieving end. Hmm, just got an idea for a new thread..... Pucka
 
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Ex98C    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   2/24/2004 9:35:21 PM
Leopard 2A5/Leopard 2 (Improved): Recent upgrade with spaced armor added to turret front, and increased armor on hull and side skirts. Other improvements include improved stabilization, suspension, navigation, fire control, and hatch design. Aha! mystery solved...found that little bit on the FAS website on the Leopard 2. It seems that for added protection againt HEATrounds and ATGMs, spaced armor of some sort was added to the turrent.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Spaced Armour....   2/24/2004 11:45:28 PM
I talked about "spaced armor" early on in this discussion. It was indeed an armor variant in the 1980's. IIRC the M1IP used spaced armor. That's the tank I convinced a soldier had soft spots cause some spots on the armor sounded different when he hit it with a hammer. Indeed, spaced armor does sound different from regular composite, chobham, rolled homogeneous, etc. Don't hit the ERA with a hammer, it sounds really loud! Anyhow, everyone stopped using spaced armor because the spacing (we're not talking about huge amounts of space here) wasn't really enough to defeat modern shaped charge warheads. Laminate spaced armor was less effective than a good thickness of composite/chobham armor, in fact. Nobody ever referred to this as "hollow armor" and the US and UK stopped using it by the time they were producing the M1A1 and Chally 2. In order for spaced armor to be effective against shaped charge warheads it would have to be "hollow", but it would then end up being so thick (we're talking needing 20, 30, 40 cm of space, maybe more against modern dual/tandem warheads) that you would make the tank as much as a meter wider. Makes it kinda hard to load on ships, railcars, etc. The Germans may well have added spaced laminate armor as an applique to the Leo2A5/A6. It's not the same as "hollow armor" as described by Jeffrey. In fact, he and I agreed that spaced laminate was not what he meant. Anyhow, I think if the Germans went to spaced laminate (spacing is perhaps on the order of 5 to 10 mm between laminate layers) I suspect it is because they don't want to use ERA or DU to defeat HEAT rounds and ATGM. The new hypervelocity penetrators like the American M829A1/A2 are not bothered by spaced laminate at all. And the current ATGM's with top attack dual warheads aren't going to be bothered by it either.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Spaced Armour....   2/25/2004 12:06:18 AM
By the way, it may seem like I'm quibbling about spaced vs. hollow. I'm really not. Spaced laminates are not "hollow", but simply have a very small layer of air between each layer of laminate (normally alternating layers of steel and composite). Hollow armor, as Jeffrey was describing, is essentially a box of RHA with a LOT of space in the middle of the box. Not the same concept at all.
 
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oldbutnotwise    RE:Spaced Armour....   2/25/2004 1:48:42 AM
Spaced armour is older than you remmeber, the germans fitted it to mk4/5 in WW2 to predetonate shaped charges. maybe the dutch decided to save money on there trainers by not fitting armour at all just a mild steel box that had the shape? ;-) I remmember talking to a royal ordance bloke about armour and he told me that part of the "new" chobbam was a layer of "beads", small plastic beads that created a thermal barrier, when hit these beads provided a heat path that dissaptes the heat from a hit. layers of highly complex ceramic would inturn deflect rod type rounds and aborb the energy. carbon/kevlar matting would provide additional boundary layers. now I will agree that this is either a, complete bollocks from a bloke taking the piss b, a guy who had a few to many and should have shut up. what I can confirm is that the guy did, and as far as I know still does work for vickers, although since they shut the leeds plant I havent seen him
 
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