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Subject: top 10 tanks in the world!!!
Hong-Xing    8/12/2003 9:07:05 AM
i think it would be this t-90 (rus) m1a2 (usa) t-98 (chi) m1a1 (usa) Challenger 2 (bri) t-95 black hawk (rus) al khalid (chi) merkeva (bra) arjun (ind) t-90||| (chi)
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:top 10 tanks:MikkoLn   11/20/2003 6:28:45 AM
>>yes you can! I mean iraq was turkey shooting, the guys were totally inept.<< One lesson that seems to have emerged in the last fifty years is that no one ever lost money betting on Arab military incompetence.
 
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Worcester    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong   11/20/2003 9:15:12 AM
The Arab "incompetence" in 1973 was sufficient for the Israeli government to fire Gen Moshe Dayan as Def Minister
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong   11/20/2003 10:36:33 AM
>>The Arab "incompetence" in 1973 was sufficient for the Israeli government to fire Gen Moshe Dayan as Def Minister << After years of deliberate preparation by both Egypt and Syria how well did 73 go for them? Egypt meticulously rehearsed, and carried out well, their assault crossing of the canal. As soon as they attempted to move forward past their rehearsed script they were mauled by a numerically inferior force which then subsequently invaded Egypt across the canal. The Syrian drive, with, again, numerical superiority and massive artillery superiority completely ran out of steam in what? 48 hours? At which point they were on the defensive and likewise faced invasion by IDF forces. Israel may have been startled and shocked by the Arab performance in the 73 War, but any competent opponent with the advantages they had should have plowed Israel under, or at least have been able to make some credible initial gains (i.e. seize the Golan on the Syrian front) and hold them.
 
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Worcester    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong   11/20/2003 12:07:37 PM
And the Israelis were so confident they brought out they armed a flight with their nukes.
 
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Worcester    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong   11/20/2003 12:20:39 PM
Look at the Sinai cease fire line and tell me who got the most ground...and still has it today: Egypt.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong   11/20/2003 1:40:52 PM
So you're saying Egypt *won* the 73 war? And more importantly, you're denying that Arab militaries are generally, and perhaps inherently, incompetent? I can cite mountains of evidence to their dismal performance, or just toss out the book "Arabs at War" for a several hundred page dissertation on the topic.
 
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Worcester    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong   11/20/2003 1:45:08 PM
You persist in generalities. Egypt won the 1973 war because they got the real estate and kept it. End game. Thankfully, most militaries are less competent than western, but I don't "assume" and dislike ethnic stereotyping. Not least because it can come back and take your land away!
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong   11/20/2003 2:18:10 PM
I don't consider it an ethnic issue. Arab armies may perform poorly because of cultural tendencies and practices, but I tend to think it is more to do with the fact that totalitarian states do not usually produce military organizations well suited to manuever warfare and other situations requiring innovation and individual initiative (Nazi Germany being the exception I'm sure someone will cite promptly). A viable Arab democracy might be reasonably expected to produce a military better able to fight on western (or Israeli) terms. As for the 73 war's peace -- I'd say on the Egyptian front it was a stalemate, with the Egyptians getting a face saving victory of sorts to make up for the previous 25 years of failure. On the other hand, Israel maintained a buffer zone in the Sinai, only status post bellum it was someone else's problem to occupy it. Were Egypt and Israel to go to war again, the fight would be in the Sinai, not on Israel's immediate border, which was the justification for occupying the Sinai in the first place.
 
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aceofw    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong   11/20/2003 2:54:09 PM
There's nothing ethnic about it: Totalitarian countries fail becouse they excecute you for not doing EXCECTLY what you were told to do, whether it's the right thing to do or not. Democratic countries encourge their commanders to think for themselves and adjust to changes on the field, which wins more battels than blind obidience. As for the Nazis: I'm not so sure that if they would have fought completly by militery thinking (battle of britain for exsemple) they would've lost... As for Egypt in 73: Militerily: They lost, and would've been completly deafeted if not for soviet intervention. Politicly: Tie, Egypt got Sinai and Israel got peace. Morale: They presented it as a victory, they "avenged" the six-days war (although they actually lost the war).
 
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swhitebull    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong   11/20/2003 4:51:45 PM
..."Israel may have been startled and shocked by the Arab performance in the 73 War, but any competent opponent with the advantages they had should have plowed Israel under, or at least have been able to make some credible initial gains (i.e. seize the Golan on the Syrian front) and hold them " I would call this one of the Mossads biggest failures, unsing a Manouver to attack is one of the oldest tactics in history. They should have seen it coming. .. Actually, the Mossad DID see it coming. I have read a number of declassifed Intel reports that said that the Mossad had an agent high up in the Syrian general staff. 2 explanations of the surprise- a) the Israelis had the intel, but mis-analyzed the intent (there is evidence that they blew the Intel that was there). ; or b) they made a political decision to absorb the first blows (Golda Meir at her Machiavellian best, apdi for with Israelis lives) and there is evidence that this indeed was the case), in order to garner world sympathy (some laugh that one!). Chaim Herzog, who was IDF COS, claims in his book that that General Elazar was aware of the concentration on both the northern and southern fronts of Egyptian and Syrian forces, and asked permission to launch a pre-emptive air strike 12 full hours before the latter two countries launched their attacks. PErmission to strike first was denied by Moshe Dayan and Golda Meir. My guess it was a combination of BOTH a) and b) swhitebull - imagine what would have happened militarily IF the IAF had been given the get go. They might have discovered the E and S. Air Defense Networks, under cover of night, and decimated them before getting chewed up over the next 4 days of combat, and E and S may have called off their attacks totally.
 
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