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Subject: M 5 Sherman tank. What would you have done?
Herald1234    2/24/2007 3:24:09 AM
If you were receiving the first British battlefield reports about the performance of the M3 Lee/Grant, as the technical head of US tank production and you had the 1942 US automotive technology base, what would you have done with the Sherman design? Herald
 
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Arbalest       2/24/2007 2:20:26 PM

My answer depends on the time period and information allowed.
 
 
It’s easy, from a post 1945 vantage point, to select the M26 as the solution, or perhaps one of the T-20/22/23 series, because they were do-able with 1942 technology. Unfortunately, this requires knowledge that either was not available at the time or was discounted: the Tiger-I and Panther were soon to be mass-produced, so the M4 needed more armor, and the 75mm wasn’t up to the job.
 
One factor at the time, and perhaps one of the top 2 in importance, was for the US to build as many tanks as possible. Nothing was allowed to get in the way, and production of any of these tanks would have interfered with M4 production. This resulted in about 49,000 M4s being produced.
 
Getting a new and better solution was essentially politically impossible. However, some product improvements could have been made, or introduced earlier.
 
Assuming that the Tiger-I has not yet been encountered in North Africa, the actions are to build /convert all M-4s to diesel and wet ammunition stowage, and probably find a way to add 25mm of armor to the hull and turret front.
 
There might have been enough information at the time to force a switch to the 76mm gun (it fits in the original M4 turret), and retrofit all existing M4s.
 
Changing to the T-23 style turret (better armor) might be possible at this time. The result at this point (1943?) is essentially a fleet of diesel-powered M4A3E8s, with possibly an extra 25mm of armor on the hull and turret front.
 
 
If the Tiger-I has already been encountered, then building the M26 is easier to justify, both at the time and in this scenario.
 
Alternatively, building the M4A3E2 ("Jumbo") with diesel power, stronger power train and a 76mm gun has more merit. The turret has 6" of armor, as cast, the hull is much thicker, and the political repercussions are minimal. Total weight: about 42 tons.
 
 
There is considerable merit to fitting the 17-pdr instead of the 76mm to the M4. Even without APDS, the 17-pdr is very close to the Panther’s 75L70. The 6-pdr was copied as the US 57mm, so doing the same with the 17-pdr should have been a minimal effort.
 
The 17-pdr on an M4 Jumbo looks to be a very interesting combination.
 
Adopting the 90mm, seen in historical hindsight, seems an obvious decision, and it was clear sometime shortly after Normandy that it should have been done. But, in 1942, it’s difficult to see this very-near-term need. It seems that a noticeably larger turret would have been needed, although the M-36 had no problems.
 
Perhaps the 90mm could not fit, perhaps someone with enough influence was opposed to the idea, and nothing could be done to prove them wrong.
 
 
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ambush       2/24/2007 2:47:54 PM
Shipping space and weight were also reasons given for not going with a bigger/better tank.
 
  Given hindsight and beign stuck withe M-4;  A better gun even if meant copying  the German Kwk 42 L/70 and a diesel engine
 
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Herald1234       2/24/2007 4:02:10 PM

Shipping space and weight were also reasons given for not going with a bigger/better tank.

 

  Given hindsight and beign stuck withe M-4;  A better gun even if meant copying  the German Kwk 42 L/70 and a diesel engine


My own thoughts;

1. I would have gone with the dual purpose 7.5 cm.L38 M-3 gun initially but I sure would have designed a turret that could have taken the later 7.6 cm.L50 M-1.
2. I would have modified the transmission so that I could have reduced the hull height.
3. I would have designed a wider turret ring and a wider tank body[3 inches] so that if I needed that 9.0 cm.L50 I could have it in the upgunning.
4. I would also have gone for wide tracks. The  M-3 Lee/Grant was already criticized for its tendency to bog in the US trials.

Herald
 
 
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YelliChink       2/24/2007 4:32:47 PM
Grant/Lee was a success to fill the gap of US tank design and allowed fast reorganization of war industry for Sherman production. However, what bothers me is that why American tank designers didn't see what Australian AC1 and Canadian Ram tank designs which both are based on M3 chasis.
 
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scuttlebut steve    sherman up's   2/24/2007 4:52:07 PM




Shipping space and weight were also reasons given for not going with a bigger/better tank.



 



  Given hindsight and beign stuck withe M-4;  A better gun even if meant copying  the German Kwk 42 L/70 and a diesel engine




My own thoughts;

1. I would have gone with the dual purpose 7.5 cm.L38 M-3 gun initially but I sure would have designed a turret that could have taken the later 7.6 cm.L50 M-1.
2. I would have modified the transmission so that I could have reduced the hull height.
3. I would have designed a wider turret ring and a wider tank body[3 inches] so that if I needed that 9.0 cm.L50 I could have it in the upgunning.
4. I would also have gone for wide tracks. The  M-3 Lee/Grant was already criticized for its tendency to bog in the US trials.

Herald
 

I totally agree with those changes plus wet ammo storage in hull bottom (no "ronsons" for me thx), and start work on the HV rounds for the (not being produced yet) 76 mm gun earlier ( not very good anticipation of future armor penetration needs by the US), and hatch modification (drivers hatch changed so turret less likely to block emergency egress, and although the marines put the underside escape hatches to good use picking up wounded on the battlefield, I dont know that that feature contributed to anything other than increased mine vulnerability in europe.
 
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Herald1234    Agreed.   2/24/2007 5:03:35 PM

Grant/Lee was a success to fill the gap of US tank design and allowed fast reorganization of war industry for Sherman production. However, what bothers me is that why American tank designers didn't see what Australian AC1 and Canadian Ram tank designs which both are based on M3 chasis.

Especially the Sentinel.

Herald

 
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doggtag    on Sherman's height   2/24/2007 5:58:18 PM
Was the flaw in the Sherman being so high due to the awkward transmission and drive shaft arrangement (clumsy American idea of running the driveshaft under the fighting compartment to reach the drive sprockets at the front), or was it because they originally used those large-diameter radial engines, and after switching to other engine layouts it was deemed cost-ineffective to redesign the hull lower, as that would've slowed production initially to accomodate the new design?
 
On the 57mm 6-pdr gun: had the British gotten the idea of the APDS ammunition to the Americans sooner, is the possibility there that the M7 Light Tank (a possible Stuart replacement prior to the Chaffee) may have been procured, as its turret (mounting a short 75) would've been able to accomodate a high velocity 57mm gun (possibly a 60+ caliber variant could've given the US a much-needed armor piercing capability that the short 75s lacked) ?
http://www.battletanks.com/images/M7_Lt-Med-1.jpg" width=400 border=0>
 
As I don't see the Sherman stepping down (75, a decent HE thrower, to 57, which in L60-70 would've been a formidable armor penetrator with APDS), due to the fact the US generally used tanks to support infantry and used TDs to destroy tanks, could we have seen this lightweight in service sporting said 57? Or even the Chaffee mount it?
 
Re: arming the Sherman, in Jumbo mode (short 105), I'm surprised the British never fitted any with their 95mm close support howitzer. Were there range/reliability issues with that weapon?
 
As far as 90mm being too big: by general appearance, the M10 tank destroyer doesn't look completely different from an M4 Sherman. And in the M36 development, the M10 evolved into a 90mm-armed vehicle.
If post-war Shermans were eventually able to fit that French 105mm gun the Israelis used on many of them,
I don't see why the Allies couldn't have upgunned the Shermans with better-performing AP throwers in 75-90mm, even if the hull needed to be widened a tad and the turret ring made larger (as it did for the French 105).
 
If the Americans had gotten their hands on APDS concepts sooner, would they have developed their own 75 or 76mm rounds for their own guns in sufficient quantity to make a difference sooner?
But of course, had that happened, would the Germans have captured the tech from wrecked Allied tanks and developed their own, or even increased production of some of their heavy tank programs and projected concepts to counter the increased Allied AP capability?
 
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Herald1234       2/24/2007 10:52:47 PM

Was the flaw in the Sherman being so high due to the awkward transmission and drive shaft arrangement (clumsy American idea of running the driveshaft under the fighting compartment to reach the drive sprockets at the front), or was it because they originally used those large-diameter radial engines, and after switching to other engine layouts it was deemed cost-ineffective to redesign the hull lower, as that would've slowed production initially to accomodate the new design?

If the Australian solution of an orbital transmission gearbox as tried in the Sentinel had been tried you could have lowered the drive train well deep in the hull. I doubt that the aero engines would have been that big a problem.  This was a design fault that could have been corrected easily.  

I would have redesigned the driver hatch and repostioned the driver inboard slightly.  The driver would still have an escape problem but by changimg the offeset you give him a better chance of getting out.

I would get rid of the bow machine gun and plate that glacis as a solid piece and slope it  as steeply as I dare.  Trunnion the mantlet gun mount forward in an egg shaped oval shaped turret and hang that balance mass overhang.

I may accept flat  planes for the tank hull for ease of mechanical layout since I can angle the planes somewhat[even for a cast hull], but the turret should be half eggshell shaped for maximum volume and maximum internal volume use in a ballistic shape. where would I put the coax machine gun? Port of the main gun I put it so the left side loader can load it and the  maingun. 

Ammunition is in the floor in wet storage though I would have investigated bustle stowage as the Japanese eventually adopted with their Chi-Ri prototype tank

 

On the 57mm 6-pdr gun: had the British gotten the idea of the APDS ammunition to the Americans sooner, is the possibility there that the M7 Light Tank (a possible Stuart replacement prior to the Chaffee) may have been procured, as its turret (mounting a short 75) would've been able to accomodate a high velocity 57mm gun (possibly a 60+ caliber variant could've given the US a much-needed armor piercing capability that the short 75s lacked) ?

link
http://www.battletanks.com/images/M7_Lt-Med-1.jpg" border="0" height="242" width="400">

 

As I don't see the Sherman stepping down (75, a decent HE thrower, to 57, which in L60-70 would've been a formidable armor penetrator with APDS), due to the fact the US generally used tanks to support infantry and used TDs to destroy tanks, could we have seen this lightweight in service sporting said 57? Or even the Chaffee mount it?

The M-7 has two big problems. Its transmission was not the best Nor was its tracklaying layout the best thought out solution. This was as much as a result of its  M-3 origins as it was of  the fact that it grew into a twenty six tonner that was too heavy for its power train or for its narrow tracks. It had grown into an M-4 competitor, an inferior M-4 competitor.  But since the M-4 already was doing the job , the replacement didn't offer anything. Even if you  gave it a  5.7cm.L60 British gun and included the HVDS shot, the result wasn't economically or technically worth it. 


Re: arming the Sherman, in Jumbo mode (short 105), I'm surprised the British never fitted any with their 95mm close support howitzer. Were there range/reliability issues with that weapon?

I don't know, I thought the 25 pounder was a superb weapon. I am not a fan of the Sherman jumbo. That thick armor casting was bad enough to cool down at 7.5-10.5 centimeters thickness. 15 centimeters was a nightmare.

As far as 90mm being too big: by general appearance, the M10 tank destroyer doesn't look completely different from an M4 Sherman. And in the M36 development, the M10 evolved into a 90mm-armed vehicle.

 
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flamingknives       2/25/2007 4:49:35 AM
Given the first British battlefield reports, I would, most likely, designed the M4 Sherman exactly as it was in reality.

Knowing what I know now, I might have hastened follow-up designs or mandated a larger turret ring, but with the information at the time there was nothing to suggest that the M4 wasn't entirely adequate, being better armoured than anything else out there and out gunning the vast majority of its opposition.
 
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doggtag    Sherman book by R P Hunnicutt   2/25/2007 5:04:22 PM
In case anyone's loking for this, there are some left still available without having to go into the several hundred dollars range that some sites are offering.
http://www.rzm.com/books/hs/sherman.jpg" width=201 align=left border=0>
 
It's available here at RZM Books http://www.rzm.com/books/hs/hs002.cfm
 
It's going for US$117 with a 10% web discount.
 
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