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Subject: BMP vs. Bradley: Which is better
wrathofachilles    12/30/2005 3:28:50 PM
Which would you rather have? The Bradley is more effective in combat from what I've read, but is also more expensive and has a high incidence of breakage. Should the US have just copied the BMP rather than design the Bradley? How does the M2A3 compare to the BMP-3M? Can either survive an RPG hit? How does the Bradley's performace in Iraq compare to the BMP's performace in Chechnya?
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:BMP vs. Bradley: Which is better   3/21/2006 5:58:39 PM
>>So , tell me how they fit nine (9) Troopers in the BMP-3 ??? Same with BMP-1/2s . I 'm listening ...<< By carrying inadequate equipment to sustain combat operations. For someone who claims to be listening you obviously are not doing so.
 
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flamingknives    RE:BMP vs. Bradley: Which is better   3/21/2006 6:19:17 PM
>>So , tell me how they fit nine (9) Troopers in the BMP-3 ??? >>Same with BMP-1/2s . >>I 'm listening ...<< > >By carrying inadequate equipment to sustain combat operations. And counting the turret crew and driver.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:BMP vs. Bradley: Which is better   3/21/2006 6:33:27 PM
>>Can you elaborate on the engagement, to include the type of round used other than believed caliber,..<< I don't have any information on the exact ranges, but the situation was basically that my friend's Fox was sent up onto an overpass to observe for chemical weapons use in the Baghdad area during or shortly after the capture of the airport. They were promptly taken under fire by an Iraqi tank (my friend's pretty emphatic on it being a T-72; I'm not clear on the source of the disconnect between her opinion and the DoD account) -- first round missed by a few feet to the front of the vehicle. A Bradley came rolling up onto the overpass to assist them while they were trying to back down off the overpass, and caught another round fired by the Iraqi tank (I'm not entirely clear on whether the Bradley crew knew exactly what they were getting into and facing when they rolled up onto the overpass -- catching a flank shot from an MBT not being anywhere on my to do list back when I crewed a Brad . . .). The Bradley suffered an in and out penetration of the troop compartment as I understand it (luckily their infantry was dismounted at the time), so the hit would be some sort of solid shot. If it was 57mm it would be API-T (which I think is the only solid shot available for the weapon); I'm not sure on what what range of sabot and solid shot the Iraqis had available for 125mm but I've wondered since becoming aware of the discrepancy in the on-site and official accounts that a sabot round may account for inconsistency. An M1A1 that was towing a second disabled M1 happened onto the scene and killed the T-72 with a single shot (I'm assuming sabot, but if they had HEAT loaded in the tube that should have been sufficient to kill a T-72 as well, claimed performance and protection levels aside). >>or is that something the DoD would frown on reaching the public domain (revealing weaknesses...but then again, Bradleys were never built with the intention of absorbing MBT firepower)? << The 57mm version of the story was reported in the Army Times back around the time it occurred (not sure on precise date, but 3rd ID was still deployed when the article came out), so the events are open source kind of stuff.
 
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Yimmy    RE:BMP vs. Bradley: Which is better   3/21/2006 6:59:03 PM
I don't mean to be picky, but how good was this friend of yours at battlefield recognition, and did he even get a look at the tank which fired at him? You didn't mention his returning fire. Everybody who thinks of enemy armour says "T72".
 
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Bluewings    RE:BMP vs. Bradley: Which is better   3/21/2006 7:19:20 PM
"By carrying inadequate equipment to sustain combat operations." Are you saying the Swede Troopers carry inadequate equipment to sustain combat operations ? I know of some Swedish friends on BMPs who would laugh loudly at you Dude ... Another bashing from a US "Cowboy" ... Cheers .
 
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doggtag    RE:BMP vs. Bradley: Which is better   3/21/2006 8:26:27 PM
->I don't mean to be picky, but how good was this friend of yours at battlefield recognition, and did he even get a look at the tank which fired at him? You didn't mention his returning fire. Everybody who thinks of enemy armour says "T72".<- heh heh heh...sounds like the Iraqis got shafted (conned, shammed, shystered, tricked big time) on that one: a T-72 with a 57mm gun??? ....are they certain it wasn't one of those re-gunned Shermans that seem to pop up from time to time in Iraq (where tankers with limited intelligence- brain capacity- swear up and down it was an actual live combatant and not a memorial sitting in a park)?
 
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joe6pack    RE:BMP vs. Bradley: Which is better   3/21/2006 11:15:23 PM
"Are you saying the Swede Troopers carry inadequate equipment to sustain combat operations ?" Frankly, I don't know. But out of ignorance of the Swede military, when was the last time they had sustained combat operations?
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:BMP vs. Bradley: Which is better   3/22/2006 7:57:43 AM
>>Are you saying the Swede Troopers carry inadequate equipment to sustain combat operations ?<< Just out of curiousity, how would they know? When was the last time Swedish troops were involved in high-intensity, high-tempo combat operations? As I noted, the Soviets thought they were carrying adequate loads of gear as well, right up until they actually tried using BMPs in combat and realized that their who log plan did not exactly sync up with reality. >>I know of some Swedish friends on BMPs who would laugh loudly at you Dude ...<< Quite frankly I doubt it. I suspect most Swedish BMP crews would admit the vehicle is a less than winning piece of economic austerity by the Swedish government and prefer they were crewing CV 90s. Especially if Sweden were to depart from its historical track record of the last couple hundred years and suddenly find itself engaged in a major ground combat operations. >>Another bashing from a US "Cowboy" ... << Now you're being trite and trying to hide your lack of coherent argument behind stereotypes. As I've noted recently in this thread both the Warrior and CV-90 also outperform any member of the BMP family by a large margin. Were I a cowboy American bent on bashing everything not invented here I hardly see myself making such a comment. At the end of the day, I'm sorry, but the BMP series are lackluster vehicles at best. Good ideas, poorly and cheaply executed, nothing more, and their battlefield record amply justifies this view. You seem hung up on the chest thumping glory of Sweden using the vehicles, but the only reason they do so is because they got them incredibly cheap from Germany as part of a package deal and it's cheaper to put second-line infantry in BMPs than in CV-90s. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in Sweden who will defend the BMP over the CV-90, though some may prefer it to a truck which was the other alternative . . .
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:BMP vs. Bradley: Which is better   3/22/2006 8:22:36 AM
>>I don't mean to be picky, but how good was this friend of yours at battlefield recognition, and did he even get a look at the tank which fired at him? You didn't mention his returning fire. Everybody who thinks of enemy armour says "T72".<< Fair question. My understanding of the story is that both the Fox and Bradley crew ID'ed it as a T-72. But, I can buy into the notion of a T-62 or even a T-55 being possibly mis-ID'ed as a -72 by people staring down the muzzle of the thing and such, but it's a harder sell to try and slip a ZSU-57-2 or towed AAA gun into the lineup, I think . . .
 
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Bluewings    RE:BMP vs. Bradley: Which is better   3/22/2006 11:16:44 AM
"Just out of curiousity, how would they know? When was the last time Swedish troops were involved in high-intensity, high-tempo combat operations?" Kosovo . You say that Swedish Troops would rather use CV90 than BMPs . Of course !! It is like comparing the Abrams SEP with the M-60 ! But that doesn 't mean they are UNHAPPY with the BMPs .It 's adequat and it does the job . Myself I am not a fan of the BMP serie but I admit that the BMP-3 is a good piece of kit . Sorry about my "Cowboy" reference but it seems to me that as soon as we 're discussing something non-US , it is put down or looked down by some American posters . They always come back to the GWs saying stupid stuff like "it 's not combat proven" , which is rather silly . As an exemple , the CV90 and the VBCI are both better than the Brad and the Boxer is better than the Striker even if they 've never seen real combat yet . (I can already hear some US posters screaming ...) Cheers .
 
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