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Subject: Chinese type 98 vs M1
GOP    6/11/2005 6:10:05 PM
Which is the better tank, given that both had equal crews (we all know the US would win in a tank battle against Chinese crews)
 
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Bluewings    RE:Chinese type 98 vs M1   6/12/2005 5:39:41 PM
It depends what ammo the two tanks are using ... Cheers .
 
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displacedjim    RE:Chinese type 98 vs M1   6/12/2005 6:08:00 PM
I know enough about tanks to at least understand what's being said. As for the actual outcome once rounds are on their way, do you think the Type 98 frontal armor could stop the 120mm HEAT round? I'd guess there's little chance of that, and even less of stopping a DU rod at any range the M-1A2 can score a hit. On the other hand, what do we really know about the Chinese 140mm HEAT or APFSDS vs. the M-1's armor? We do know that the M-1 can resist the 125mm from the T-72 at least, right? I understand the part about how a kinetic energy round from the 140mm has potentially about twice the energy of a 120mm round, but how much "overprotection" does the M-1 have? Then there's fire control. Don't you guess that even in daylight the Chinese can't match our gunlaying, and that we would still have a significant advantage at night with clearer, longer-ranged optics? I admit I don't know the answers, I just find it difficult to believe they can match us (or the latest versions of the Challenger, Leopard, or LeClerc). Displacedjim
 
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Bluewings    RE:Chinese type 98 vs M1   6/12/2005 6:20:51 PM
Jim , the T-72 can use rounds (sabots and HEAT) ranging from the 3BM9 ~1969~ to the 3BM42M ~1998 . As an exemple , the Irakis did use 3BM12/15 ~1980~ which is a steel sabot . Not even Tungsten :-( . That round as no chance whatsoever to go through the frontal arc of the Abrams . One the other hand , a 3BM42 or 3BM42M WILL go through an Abrams frontal arc at up to 1800-2000m . The latest Chinese DU rounds ~125-2~ will turn any Abrams into a wreck at 2000m or less . Same with their 125-1 round which has been sold to Pakistan . But if they use old Russian rounds , the Type98 has no chance against an Abrams . It depends of the ammo ... Cheers .
 
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displacedjim    RE:Chinese type 98 vs M1   6/12/2005 6:32:19 PM
Okay, then I'll concede that IF they score a hit we're in trouble. Guess we'll just have to make sure to detect first, identify first, and shoot first. Sounds like time to focus on crew training, especially situational awareness and tactics in observation, fire, and manuever as a combined arms team. N'cest pas? Displacedjim
 
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Bluewings    RE:Chinese type 98 vs M1   6/12/2005 6:53:47 PM
You 've noticed that I haven 't said much about what the US rounds would do to a Type-98 , simply because we do not have much infos on their Armor design . But we can try to guess ... The US M829A1 DU APFSD round cannot penetrate the frontal arc of Leo2A5/6 , Leclerc , Chally II , T-serie with Kontact or Kactus , if fired at more than 1600m away . But the M829A2 or A3 can kill the mentioned Tanks at up to 2400m away . Now , what the Chinese armor 's like ? As far as we know , they only use PRA ~passive reactive armor~ on Turrets/Hulls from T-72/80s series . Sure they did design an almost totally new turret for the Type-98/99 . What is it made of ? What is the quality of the steel employed ? We do not know . As a general guess , I would say that the Type-98/99 "should" be able to withstand M829A1 at 2000m . 120mm M829A1 (1991) 680mm@1km OR 610mm@2km But the Chinese DU APFSD 125-2 can penetrate around 880mm@2 km . If the US Abrams are using the A1 generation , they can be soundly beaten . It is a different story with the A2 or A3 . HEAT rounds are "almost" a no-no vs. Tanks . Nowadays , any decent PRA or ERA will stop HEAT rounds pretty easily . Some Tankers actually prefer to fire the loaded HEAT round up the sky and reload Sabot when they know they are up against Tanks , you don 't play around with HEAT rounds vs. Tanks ... Nevertheless , I believe the SEP is a better Tank than the Type 98/99 but I say again , it all depends on the ammo used ... Cheers .
 
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TankHunter    RE:Chinese type 98 vs M1   6/12/2005 6:55:12 PM
The following is a list of Chinese APFSDS ammunition along with it’s penetration. 125-I APFSDS 460 125-II APFSDS 600 Type1 APFSDS 770 Type2 APFSDS 880 Type3 APFSDS 950 Type4 APFSDS 1010 Type5 APFSDS 1000 WZ123 APFSDS 900 The Chinese Type-98G is believed to have armor protection values close to 845mm of RHA. That is on par with the M1A2. This means that, assuming that the information is accurate, that Chinese tanks are a match for the M1s or other tanks used by western nations at this point in time.
 
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Bluewings    RE:Chinese type 98 vs M1   6/12/2005 6:57:28 PM
TankHunter ;-) But some of the values are wrong ... Cheers .
 
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TankHunter    RE:Chinese type 98 vs M1   6/12/2005 7:08:20 PM
"displacedjim RE:Chinese type 98 vs M1 6/12/2005 6:08:01 PM I know enough about tanks to at least understand what's being said. As for the actual outcome once rounds are on their way, do you think the Type 98 frontal armor could stop the 120mm HEAT round? I'd guess there's little chance of that, and even less of stopping a DU rod at any range the M-1A2 can score a hit. On the other hand, what do we really know about the Chinese 140mm HEAT or APFSDS vs. the M-1's armor? We do know that the M-1 can resist the 125mm from the T-72 at least, right? I understand the part about how a kinetic energy round from the 140mm has potentially about twice the energy of a 120mm round, but how much "overprotection" does the M-1 have? Then there's fire control. Don't you guess that even in daylight the Chinese can't match our gunlaying, and that we would still have a significant advantage at night with clearer, longer-ranged optics? I admit I don't know the answers, I just find it difficult to believe they can match us (or the latest versions of the Challenger, Leopard, or LeClerc). Displacedjim " The Type-98 will for sure be able to defend against a HEAT round. HEAT is the last ammunition that one would want to use against a tank. Up against a T-72, you can get away with it, but anything heavier, you are not going to do much. Also HEAT that the US uses has what, 400-500mm of penetration. The top of the line Type 98 is believed to have over 800mm of RHA. Add any ERA, and you are not going to kill it. You may take out some systems or optics, but you will not get a penitration on frontal armor. Re Iraqi tank ammo. That is 20-30 years old, and uses iron or steel. Not Tungsten or DU. Russian tank ammunition is much better than what they gave the Iraqis (just like American tank ammo being better than what we give Egypt). Also Chinese tank ammunition is something that you would not want to face. That stuff will kill an M1 at 2-3 kilometers (the Type-2 ammunition to be exact). The more modern Chinese ammo is likely to be much more powerful. Re FCS, the German Leopard 2 has a better FCS than the M1. The M1 has that bloody aggravating unstable sight when you lase a target. The Leopard 2 lacks that. Thus you can fire more quickly. What the Type 98 has, it is anyone’s guess, but the M1 does not have the best FCS.
 
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TankHunter    RE:Chinese type 98 vs M1   6/12/2005 7:10:23 PM
"Bluewings RE:Chinese type 98 vs M1 6/12/2005 6:57:28 PM TankHunter ;-) But some of the values are wrong ... Cheers . " Of course, logic would dictate that Type 4 will be worse than Type 5. But that is based on the info that I have available.
 
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Bluewings    RE:Chinese type 98 vs M1   6/12/2005 7:27:07 PM
Thanks for your input TH , now give me 50 for intruding when your CO is talking ;-) (Good post btw) Cheers .
 
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