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Subject: Polish PT-91M for Malaysia
Raff    5/18/2003 3:35:08 AM
The polish PT-91M tank (modernized T-72M1)is in my opinion one of the best MBT's in the world, an order from Malaysia (48 tanks) proves this. The PT-91M i very cost effective, for about half the price of an M1A1 you get a 125 mm smoothbore D-81TM main gun (2A46), laser warning reciever (SS1C "Obra"), radiation-absorbing paint, reactive armor, 1000 hp diesel engine, effective FCS (French SAGEM Savan-15, an automatic loader and new optimised ammunition. The PT-91M weighs only about 46 tons. It won against the Type 88 K1A1, T-80UD, Vickers Mark (Dont now Model).
 
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hornet    RE:Some things to consider   10/23/2005 7:52:47 PM
Do they (Kuwaiti) have or operate such tank? Considering the cramped condition of the PT-91M, can't say much. When I have the chance to get inside, I'll tell you. I've seen it during the National Day parade. However it was not the final version. It was partially prepared for the parade. A/C for the tank is enough, acc. to a source, to tackle the humid condition of the country.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Some things to consider   10/23/2005 8:14:23 PM
Hornet, the Vickers MBT was a cheap tank of the 60's for those who did not want to spend the money for the Chiefan. Kuwait operated it when the Iraqis steam rollerd them.
 
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hornet    RE:Some things to consider   10/24/2005 10:05:01 PM
Thanks, are they(kuwaiti) operating any new tank? They still have a lot of money, don't they.
 
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shawn    RE:Some things to consider   10/30/2005 9:24:31 AM
With regards to the Malaysian tank buy, bear in mind the operational conditions of Malaysia, particularly Peninsula Malaysia and not Sumatra. While there has been a lot of infrastructure development in the past 2 decades, there are still plenty of road bridges that won't support anything weighing more than about 40 tonnes, so going for a 'medium' weight class MBT would be more practical than a heavyweight like the M1 or Leopard. So, from the 'medium' class, the Malaysians spent plenty of time looking around, and they did trial a number of tanks, including the Vickers MK3 (a modernised version of the ones that Kuwait and India used), the Korean K1A1 and the PT-91 Twady, which eventually won. Size wise, most Malaysian soldiers are shorter than Western soldiers, below 5 foot 10 inches in height, so the crampness of the PT-91 is not as great a factor as it would be to Western tankers. Utility wise, they won't be spending most of their time in the tank on the move. The closed, hilly terrain of Peninsula Malaysia precludes any sweeping maneuver warfare of the type seen in Operations Desert Storm or Iraqi Freedom. Most likely, they will be used to provide firepower in a combined arms prepared assualt, or else hull-down in prepared defensive positions. Opponent-wise: There are a number of MBTs used by Malaysia's neighbours. Thailand operates a variety of tanks of differing quality (in terms of service ability), from 105mm Stingray light tanks, to 90mm M-48s, 105mm M60A3s and Chinese 100mm Type 69. Vietnam operates T-62s and T-72s. Singapore operates modernised 105mm Centurions and 75mm AMX-13s. The greatest possible threat the Malaysia's T-91s however, are from the Hellfire II missiles of Singapore's 12 AH-64D Apache and 8 AH-64D Apache Longbow.
 
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major360       12/8/2007 8:23:07 PM
Yeeeep, i remember how well  the t-72 did vs M1,  The T-72  turret fly like 10ft in the air after one hit from the 60 ton tank and its 120mm M256 cannon.
 
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flamingknives       12/8/2007 9:17:53 PM
Well done, Major 360.

You've clearly perfected thread necromancy, haveing resurrected this one after more than two years, then you've proved yourself a fool for comparing two vastly different tanks as if they were the same.

In case you are entirely ignorant, I'll run through some of the differences:

PT91 has better armour than Iraqi T72M (which, being an export model, had inferior armour to contemporary Russian T72s)
PT91 has better fire control (that's what FCS means) than Iraqi T72M (and hence superior firepower)
PT91 has better mobility than Iraqi T72M
PT91 has better ammunition than Iraqi T72M (and hence superior firepower)
PT91 actually has a defensive aide suite, unlike the Iraqi T72M
 
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smitty237    My thoughts   12/9/2007 12:30:18 AM
"Thread necromancy"----That's a good one.  I'll have to remember that.
 
As a Westerner, and specifically as an American, guys like me tend to take umbrage whenever someone claims that a Russian made tank is in any way equivalent to the modern Challenger, Abrams, Leopard, or Merkava.  As far as the Abrams, Challenger, or Merkava is concerned, that debate was settled on the battlefields of the Middle East, and most of us have no doubt that the Leopard or LeClerc would do just as well in open battle.  So it should come as no surprise when we Westerners sneer whenever someone claims that a T-72 variant, even a souped up one like the PT-91, is one of the best MBTs in the world. 
 
Still, Raff makes some good points in some of his follow up threads.  For a country like Malaysia, buying a sophisticated, modern tank like the M-1 Abrams may make no sense whatsoever.  Malaysian military doctrine is probably very much infantry oriented, with tanks serving primarily as mobile artillery against hard targets and defense against other tanks.  Mobility in the desert or plains is very rapid, while it can be very slow going in the jungle.  As they used to tell us at Ft. Benning, "Terrain dictates."  An Abrams, Challenger, or LeClerc is nothing more than a small, static fortress if it gets bogged down in three feet of mud in a swamp. 
 
Look at it this way:  if you were looking for the most effective automobile to  get you from point A to point B and that was your only consideration, then you would probably choose a Rolls Royce, Lexus, or maybe a Ferrari.  However, if you were given a set budget and then forced considered things like terrain, speed limits, price of gas, and amount of cargo you would need to carry, then your choice may very well be a Volkswagen Beetle or maybe even a Chrysler minivan.  That's the kind of choice many small nations face when it comes to buying tanks and fighter jets, and it shouldn't come as too big of a surprise to us when they sometimes choose a T-72 or MiG-29 in favor of the Challenger or F-18.   Countries that procure weapons such as the PT-91 probably wouldn't stand much of a chance against countries such as the United States, Britain, France, or Germany, but for the most part that is not who they are worried about.  Instead, they arm themselves to fight the third world country next door that is similarly armed. 
 
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Photon       12/16/2007 5:09:39 AM
Not to mention that those countries that have substantial industrial capabilities to build tanks build from their own designs -- US, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, China, Israel, South Korea.

K1A1 would probably not fare well if it has to compete against the likes of T-80 -- the former's main armament is 105mm AT gun ...  M-60 and Leopard 1 are also armed with 105mm.  (South Korea has tested K2 -- 120mm smoothbore AT gun -- and is undergoing production; so even for them, K1A1 is no longer their latest MBT.)

Malaysians are not the only ones going for medium-weight MBTs.  You can see the same from the South Koreans as well -- even their latest K2 MBT weighs around 50 tons.  They do not need super-heavies like the Abrams to take on North Korea (their tank park consist of T-55s and T-62s ...... heck, you can get by with just having a bunch of M-48s and M-60s!)  Not to mention that Korea is a rugged country -- you are not going to do anything like the Desert Storm in the peninsula!
 
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usajoe       1/2/2008 10:01:31 PM
im afraid that western country especially US claims their MBT is the best is a propaganda. they just want to make their product highly desirable and be admired by all country,but in fact their product is not always as best as the said. futhermore,US will limit the technology transfer for their military products. so although M1A2 MAYBE the best, but the foreign country who purchase it,may get below than 80% from the actual performance.please think about it. did you remember Apache has been taken down just by iraqis farmer AK-47 with 7.62mm bullet? they claims, Apache can still fly back to base after they has been shot by 20mm gun!!! arrghhh~~ what the hell???
 
 
What cave did you crawl out of you sound like a blind, deff  5 year old kid,
if i give you ak 47 you will go out there against an Apache, you know what
iam sorry for even trying to make sense of such a moranic thread have a
nice day
 
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zzuhairz    malaysia here   11/3/2010 1:37:42 AM
u guys should come to malaysia & see for yourself the terrains here. the peninsular malaysia is >70% covered with high hills, stone mountains with many slopes that almost 90 degrees (yeap; a straight line), thousands of rivers running across the country & thick tropical rainforests which are no place for any type of vehicles. the PT-91 is the best fit for our war strategy, & even if we were to purchase 10000 leopard 2A6 it will be useless in malaysia & its surrounding countries' terrain. i've tracked some of the easiest forest & hills here & even that is a VERY tough thing to do on foot (& hands!); so u can guess any tank's metal tracks are of no use here ;-)
 
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