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Subject: M1A2 vs Leopard1
DropBear    10/31/2004 12:09:54 AM
Could a solitary M1A2 Abrams survive a hypothetical engagement with two Leopard1 tanks working together? Irrespective of ground terrain conditions (desert, woodlands etc), does the Abrams have a marked advantage in sensors, weapons range etc, to defeat two Leopard1's ???
 
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Kozzy    RE:M1A2 vs Leopard1   11/3/2004 7:11:46 PM
If the Leopards see the Abrams first, it's anyone's game. If they were good Leo crews they would probably flank the Abrams on both sides, where their 105mm guns can penetrate the side armor. If the Abrams see's the Leo's first (which it probably will) it can eat them in 10 seconds or less. In that case the 2nd crew would have to be good enough to swing around and hit the Abrams in the glacis or lower hull in under 5 seconds.
 
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bunglefoot    RE:M1A2 vs Leopard1 - Canada   11/3/2004 7:27:41 PM
Canada is purchasing a bunch of the 105mm turreted Stryker variant. I used to be opposed to the idea of losing tanks (me = canuck), but now I am not so sure. For the time being at least it seems as if most tanks are not much more survivable vs. the most advanced anti-armor weapons (kornets, hellfires, etc) available than a tin can. Thus, assuming a moderate level of competance in your enemy, you are better off with more vehicles quantitatively that are quicker and more agile. Thus increasing the chances of being hit by one of said weapons It also makes more sense logistically, because the Stryker is being PRODUCED IN CANADA, and is highly based on Canada's LAV III, which is itself a variant on the Pirahna armored vehicle. So we have parts produced locally and a high degree of similarity between vehicles even if they are not identical, which hopefully means parts commonality as well as training. That said, with lighter vehicles and no tanks there is nothing to stop the moderately competant enemy from forgoing the state of the art anti-tank equipment and going for ww2-type anti-tank rifles and so on, so you definately need the heavies around just to keep the enemy no their toes. I would hope that Canada would buy some abrams or leoII's to supplement, even if we only bought 60 or so of them.
 
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DropBear    RE: datM1TC   11/3/2004 8:37:05 PM
Thanks, mate.
 
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Yimmy    RE: datM1TC   11/4/2004 10:33:44 AM
"I would hope that Canada would buy some abrams or leoII's to supplement, even if we only bought 60 or so of them" 60 Challenger 2's are on the offering in a couple of years....
 
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Seeker    RE:M1A2 vs Leopard1   11/4/2004 9:53:35 PM
I was under the impression that skilled Abrams crews could fire 3 shots into 3 different targets from turret down in 15 seconds....thats what the ODS vets were tell them on TankNET atleast!
 
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Jeffrey    RE:M1A2 vs Leopard1   11/5/2004 7:35:17 AM
15 secs...
 
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datM1TC    RE:M1A2 vs Leopard1   11/5/2004 5:40:17 PM
A hard-working loader can keep the 1-shot-every-5-seconds going for about a minute. At that rate, he's keeping just ahead of the gunner and TC. It's really hard work. After a minute or so, he's going to start getting pretty darned tired. I always make it a point to buy my loaders a few beers after we come off a range - they earn it.
 
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RetiredCdnTanker    RE:M1A2 vs Leopard1 - Canada   11/6/2004 7:31:29 AM
Except that the MGS version of the Stryker is not going to be made in Canada, and only has about 20% parts commonality with the LAV III. Those arguments are no good..
 
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Seeker    RE:M1A2 vs Leopard1 - Canada   11/6/2004 3:44:57 PM
Yep . With all the modern technology going into modern light weight armor, you'd have thought by now some one could have come up with a 20 ton tank with some add on armor [ bring it up to 30 tons] in theater and be able to stand up to the T-55s and T-62 around the world.
 
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count von moltke    RE:M1A2 vs Leopard1 - Canada   1/14/2005 9:51:27 AM
k ...... 2 leopard1A5 will win the engage .....
 
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