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Subject: WW11 What ifs?
Johnny Frost    7/11/2003 4:21:01 AM
What do people thoughts on the most interesting "What ifs" of ww11. I immediately think of Hitler not ordering his armour to overrun the Dunkirk and Calais beaches allowing BEF and French Forces to escape. Would this have changed the outcome? What about the decision to switch the targets from the airfields to the cities by the Germans in the battle of Britain. What if Hitler had pushed for Moscow and not the Caucuses in 1941. What if Japan had attacked Russia and not the US, from Manturia?
 
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Ex98C    RE:WW11 What ifs?   1/26/2004 7:07:24 PM
I'vwe been thinking of a differnet what if for a while now. If I ever get the time thinking abouyt maybe turning into a book..so here it is and tell me what you think. Hitler is killed during the Munich Beer hall Putcsh.. Now the way I"m thinking that the Nazi's are less of a force without his personality..and the communist take power in the 1930's forming a block with the Soviet Union...part of the problems is all the implications this brings up. Anyway..do you think the Nazi;s would fold without Hitler?: Would the Communists take control of Germany?
 
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mike_golf    RE:WW11 What ifs?   1/26/2004 9:54:13 PM
Ex98C wrote: "Anyway..do you think the Nazi;s would fold without Hitler?: Would the Communists take control of Germany" Well, to start with the first question. Absolutely, yes the Nazi party would have folded and become a mere footnote in history without Hitler. None of his followers had the political genius, drive or vision to carry off what he did. They might have remained a minor party for some time to come but they would never affect German politics the way they did with Hitler leading them. The second question is a bit trickier. I think there are several thorny issues. The western powers made it very clear in the early 1920's that they would intervene militarily to try and defeat a communist takeover. Such a threatened takeover of Germany might well have been a catalyst to action that the Nazi's never were. France and Britain were very divided about whether Hitler was a threat and about whether his behavior towards Versailles, etc. was justified. I doubt they would have been so divided and ambivalent by a clear Communist takeover of Germany. On top of that, a significant majority of the German population was very right wing and anti-communist. An attempted communist takeover of Germany might well have led to a civil war. No, I don't think that the communists could have succeeded in a takeover of Germany with Hitler out of the way, but I do think they might have tried.
 
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Thomas    RE:WW11 What ifs? mike_golf    1/27/2004 2:26:05 AM
Hitler was not a particular genius. Theree were lot of nutty right wing parties in Germany at the time. The Nazies survived as the fittest, some other would have been just as fit. Someone else would have tapped into the political market of the dissatisfied peasants in Western Germany - it would not have been the liberals as they had been defeated years before WW1. In other countries, there were facist movements, but if there was a strong liberal party, they did not stand a chance - this was not the case in Germany, Italy and Spain. I don't think the communist could have taken over for 2 reasons: 1. Germany has always had a very strong social democratic workers movement - and what is often lost from an american perspective - nobody hates communists more than a social democrat. Social Democrats are well organised and not pewish in dealing with communists. 2. The reason the communists did not take over immediately after WW1 (partly) is because the German High Command had financed Lenin - they wanted something in return - all the communist leaders before and during WW1 disappered immediately after the war.
 
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ace    if germany didn't invade russia   1/31/2004 3:48:34 AM
britain would have eventualy fallen into germanies hands.
 
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ace    if japan invaded russia instead of attacking Pearl harbour   1/31/2004 3:52:28 AM
it would have gotten it's oil, and germany and japan would have taken over russia. after that, germany would have conquered europe and japan would have conquered asia and australia. and there goes the world as we know it.
 
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bsl    RE:WW11 What ifs?   1/31/2004 4:35:56 PM
"The western powers made it very clear in the early 1920's that they would intervene militarily to try and defeat a communist takeover" Right up to the point where Britain and France were dragged into WW2 almost against their will, there was nearly no chance of a direct military intervention in Germany. Certainly not if it seemed as if there would be opposition. Just barely conceivably if there looked to be chaos. But, neither the UK nor France wanted any military adventures anywhere in the world where people fought back in the interwar era. (Shooting backwards aboriginals in Africa and Asia was a different matter.) OTOH, there was not going to be a comminist putsch in Germany unless the worst of the economic troubles of the worst of the Depression continued. So, to get to the point of such a putsch, you have to assume that without the Nazis, no German government could have had an effective economic policy. I think this is a questionable assumption.
 
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Ad    RE:WW11 What ifs?   3/3/2004 2:44:40 PM
Bsl is right, does the Maginot line seem like an aggressive part of the French military? Ace, Germany had its chance against Britain. Why would a re-run of the battle of Britain, with a greater disparity of numbers as far as the RAF’s concerned, this disparity would be positive, while the Luftwaffe’s numbers as well as skilled pilots would be significantly less? I don’t understand how you come to this conclusion, please feel free to enlighten me. Hitler was an opportunist. Only code White and Barbarossa were actually planned. Code Yellow and Sea Lion were totally opportunistic.
 
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ace    RE:WW11 What ifs?   3/5/2004 5:42:05 AM
After the Batle for Britain, Germay still had an anormus millitary to invade the USSR. Expantion into the east, and ultimatly conquering the soviets was probably Germanies main objective in ww2. I might be wrong, but the way i see it, Germany didn't pull out of the battle for Britain because it was defeted and was unable to contenue, but because it needed to save up it's millitary for the east, and considered Britain as a smaller objective to reach it'sain goal. If germany had thrown it's entire wight at britain with complete determination to gain victory like it did with the USSR, Britain would have eventualy fallen. The war wouldn't just be faught in the sky's. I say this with all respect to the British, and there extraodanary war efforts in fighting the lufftwatt against all odds.
 
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ace    RE:WW11 What ifs?   3/5/2004 5:54:20 AM
"So, to get to the point of such a putsch, you have to assume that without the Nazis, no German government could have had an effective economic policy." I would say that the communist could have had and effective economicle policy. lets look at two of the major factors that built a powerful economy in germany. -the abolishment of the treaty of versailles. -The abolishment of the workers union, giving Hitler complete control over the work force, he even controlled their pay pakage, and made a law against strikes. If the communists had come into power, im pretty sure that if they were anything like the russians, they would have abolished the treaty of Versailles anyway. as for gaining control of the work force, well that is what communism is all about.
 
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ace    nazi actions in Russia.   3/5/2004 6:15:11 AM
A moajor factore that contributed to the defeat of germany in russia, is the people's hatred of the nazi's and there complete determination to fight them out of the soviet union. this anger was fueld by the nazis themeselves, who comitted outragiouse war crimes against the russian people, such as the seige of leningrad, the random slaughter of civilians, men weman and children, weherever they went, execution of thousands of prisinors in concentration camps. we must remember that when the Nazis first entered the USSR, many russian welcomed them as a liberisation force from Stalin. Some even offered to fight for the nazis. this was before they saw who the nazis realy were. If the Nazis had treated the Russia public humainely, there would not have been such strong will of the russian army to stop the nazi envaiders at any cost. (Most despratly fought to save their families from German occupation). There would be many more russian soldiers that surrenerd to the nazis if they knew that the would be treated humainly, and instead of the large amount of Gorrilla movement agianst the Nazis, the people may have use the invation as an opportunity to raise up against Stalin. It is the german war crimes that lost them the war.
 
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