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Subject: Are Marines heavy or light infantry?
swami    3/21/2004 4:32:17 PM
I have heard some discussion about creating infantry units that bridge the gap between heavy infantry/armored and light infantry/airborne. For example, the Stryker brigades. But isn't that realistically what the Marines are? They don't have the number of tanks of the heavies, but they have APCs distinguishing them from lights. Comments?
 
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Demosthenes    RE:Are Marines heavy or light infantry   3/28/2004 4:26:32 PM
I don't think you can really classify the Marines simply as "infantry". They're almost a self-contained Land-Sea-Air force in and of themselves. But if you have to put a label on them, it would be heavy infantry. Not armored-division masquearding and an infantry force. Honest to God infantry. They have a lot of direct and indirect fire support, they have the logistics apparatus for the long haul, and a marine division-sized detachment has more presence on the ground than any other equivalent unit in the world. period.
 
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Rubicon    RE:Are Marines heavy or light infantry demosthenes   3/31/2004 9:32:06 PM
Hear, hear.
 
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macawman    RE:Are Marines heavy or light infantry   3/31/2004 11:36:22 PM
>>> I don't think we deploy any "light" infantry divisions, in division size strength anymore <<< If your refering to the Corps, I think you are correct. If refering to the Army, the 82nd Airborne and the 10th Mountain Divs light infantry can deploy as a division. Lately, they have one brigade refiting back in the States while the other two bdes are deployed overseas. Full division deployment is dependent upon mission requirements and size of the AOR. The other light Army division the 25th Div, out of Hawaii, is in the process of becoming a Stryker/LAV III Div. One thing that is impeding that changeover is the lack of mech training area on the Big Island.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Are Marines heavy or light infantry, disagree Raymond.   4/1/2004 5:55:56 AM
>>8 LAVs is a significant force support for what amounts to a reinforced battallion.<< And doesn't count for squat compared to what a Stryker infantry battalion is equipped with. >>Oh yeah don't forget that in addtition to arty you have 60, and 88 mortars and each fire team has a SAW, and platoon has several M240 GOLFs. Anyhow, what's your definition of medium infanry then << Counting SAWs and M240Gs as relevant in discussing medium infantry demonstrates that you're not particularly up to speed on light/medium/heavy distinctions. Ditto the mortars. All of the above are weapons systems Army light infantry bring to the fight.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Are Marines heavy or light infantry   4/1/2004 6:07:40 AM
>>Well first of all you don't want any vehicles delivering you straight into combat zone,<< Um, that was actually the plan, both when I was a mech infantryman and a cavalry scout crewing a Bradley fighting vehicle. Sometimes the situation does not call for that approach, but when it does the Brad can get you a whole lot closer than 2-4 miles from the OBJ. >>Stryker run 60 per battalion, yeah but that's for mechanized division. << Um, no. It's for a medium infantry unit. The point being that you've pretty much described light infantry consistently (foot mobile, with the possibility of employing non-organic motor transport, having to dismount from trucks outside direct fire from enemy weapons, etc.) and tried to argue that somewhere in there is 'medium.' I'm not seeing it. If you don't own your own transports, odds are you are very much a light infantry formation, even if you might be able to hitch a ride now and again.
 
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ambush    RE:Are Marines heavy or light infantry   5/25/2004 9:35:18 PM
They are not Light, Medium or Heavy. They are Marines. Taken by itself a Marine Infantry Battalion may seem light but has more personnel/firepower than its Army Light/Airborne/Air Assault counterpart because of its larger Rifle Squads and Weapons Company. But that does not tell the whole story. Just as an Army Battalion operates as part of a Brigade, a Marine Infantry Battalion operates as part of a larger unit, the previously discussed Marine Expeditionary Unit-MEU. This has considerably more firepower than its Army light counterpart. You are correct in saying that Marine Corps is short on ground transport but you are neglecting the Aviation assets that come with a MEU, one helicopter squadron with about 20 Transport/Cargo helicopters and for added firepower Cobra attack helicopters and Harrier jets aircraft. But let us remember what the purpose of an MEU is. It is a “Kick in the door/roof” force set up for 30 days of self sustained combat to secure entry into the theater. After that a follow on Army force or a specifically configured Marine Air Ground Task Force, MCAGTF like that used in Gulf War I and II. You cannot consider Marine Infantry by itself because it rarely operates by itself. But as in macawaman’s post: “The big difference between Army soldiers and Marines is ATTITUDE. The Marines have more of a warrior spirit (Gung Ho) that is inbeded starting with day one in basic training. The reason for this apparent greater sense of combat orientation is Marine NCO leadership and Corps tradition.” Attitude is a factor. Look at Afghanistan. A land locked country miles from the sea and what was the first American conventional force in country, the US Marines. By rights the first force operating out of Khandhar should have been and Army light Infantry or Airborne outfit. But the only Army units operating at that time were special ops. Why? First Army Leadership stated they need more time to get a bigger force ready while the Marine Corps said will go now with what we got on the scene. Second is the Air Force. Why were the first cargo aircraft operating out of Khandhar Marine KC-130s and not Air Force C-130s? The Air Force was having (and may still have) trouble getting into the whole concept of expeditionary warfare. It refused to allow its aircraft to operate from Khandahar until the Airfield was improved. So the Army would have had to go in with a much smaller force than it wanted and rely on air drop for resupply until it got the airfield up to Air Force standard. In short the Marine Corps was able to give the Commander –n-Chief what he wanted when he asked for it. A short comment on the Stryker Brigade. Putting scandals and the question of if the M-113 would have been a better choice. The Brigade appears to be performing well on the ground. Unfortunately it is unable to meet the air transportability goals. Partly because of the size of the Stryker vehicle and the lack of suitable airfield to reducing turn around time for aircraft. The Brigade does not meet the Army’s desire for a rapidly deplorable medium force.
 
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harpo    RE:Are Marines heavy or light infantry   7/9/2004 3:54:57 AM
Does this sound familiar.... 9 infantry bn 1 tnk bn 3 155mm Bn 1 203mm bn TA Bty Div HQ 3 Bde or RCT HQ 1 support (bde, rgt, DISCOM... whatever) with tran, med, maint, supply, etc. and I may be missing some things like CAV. This is the INFANTRY division of the 50's and the Inf div of the Nat'l Guard up till round-out Kapstone etc. Add in the AAV's take away the 203mm Bn and you have the Marine Division of the 70's. Add in the LAV's and. . . you have the Marine Division of today. Which is the GCE of the MEF (Support Rgt separate from GCE). Cut that by about a third and you have a Marine Rgt, GCE of MEB (which last I checked really don't exist anymore all MEB (9) HQ were disestablished in 90's as part of "Peace Initiatve" Last Thing... the First Inf Div (1ID, Big Red One) 4th Inf Div (4ID, Ivy Division) are not Heavy Inf Div's... They are heavy Div's or Inf Div's (Mech). The only diference between them and the 1st Armored and 1st Cav is in the number of Armored or Mechanized Battalions they have (Arm Div have more Armor, Mech Div more Mech...Usually). I know I am late in chiming in...
 
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JCT    RE:Are Marines heavy or light infantry   3/3/2005 4:21:14 PM
It is all about attitude. Marines pride ourselves on being the premier light infantry force in the world. However, that’s an argument for another forum – but you have to think it in order to strive for it. The Marine rifle company is truly light – when I was active duty (mid-90’s) my company had 1 M151 jeep to its name. We still brought around 180 grunts to the field and that’s not including the company HQ platoon (3x 42man rifle platoons & a 60man wpns plt w/ M240s, 60mm mtrs, & SMAWs). After the AAVs or helos dropped us, we moved everywhere on foot and you humped 2-3 days of food and water with you. However, infantry battalions are heavier with their motor pool and Weapons company and the rifle companies can not get too far from Battalion due to their logistics requirements. During OIF, I MEF was mostly mechanized. There were only 1-2 battalions forced to move in 7 ton trucks. The majority of the AAV assets were brought in country to support the war. (There were more AAVs in theater than crews available.) The AAV is not an IFV, just an overly large and vulnerable battle taxi. But they proved their worth during the war and the crews kept them running through a tremendous effort. They often dismounted their accompanying infantry under fire. Once that was accomplished, they provided admirable fire support from their up-gun weapons stations. LAVs are not meant for assaults – they are part of Light Armored _Reconnaissance_ battalions and are not infantry. They do carry scouts, but a company of LAVs has only a platoon’s worth of dismounts. (Strykers are nice and they have their vehicle AT weapons section, but a platoon of LAV-25s vs a plt of Strykers would be interesting.) I MEF was not able to logistically support itself during the march on Baghdad. The Army provided some support and I MEF contracted out to civilian agencies for fuelers and heavy lift transport. I know from experience, I had to provide convoy escort to several of these convoys. The Marine Corps is not logistically equipped for extended campaigns far from the waters edge (we just happen to make it work and do it well.) So, in conclusion to a very rambling post, it depends where you look. A Marine Division is very large and will never deploy without its accompanying MEF HQ. Together they are one of the largest divisional structures in the world with all their attachments. The resulting force could be called medium. The infantry battalion is light and its rifle companies even more so.
 
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