The original thread said "too light". Cdo 21 in doubling their fire support makes them quite "heavy" for light infantry; and increases ground speed to 30mph. Don't think I or anyone was suggesting a Viking is a tank - I said it was a light armored, swimming snow-trac/mobile based on Volvo 202. "M777" What people ALWAYS forget is the ammunition and rate of fire. 3Cdo brigade WITHOUT its vehicles or Vikings has a war load - mostly arty ammo - of 5,000 tons. It needs 150-200 gun rounds on site per gun for a 6 gun battery to support a commando deliberate attack. A Sea King will lift 94 rounds, a Chinook 196, which is why the latter is preferred because it can also lift the light gun AND 1 ton truck in a single lift. (Gun+truck+150/200 rounds = 2 Chinook or 4 Sea King. Much better use of air crew.) M777 needs double the helo support: 1 for M777, 1 for prime mover and 2 for 155mm x 150/200 rounds. And no, having fewer 155mm is not a substitute for more 105mm - neuralizing fire support for infantry is weight x duration and using fewer, but bigger rounds means the duration/coverage is less AND the following infantry cannot get as close to the barrage. With 105mm, infantry can get as close as 50 yds from the barrage which means they are in snap shot and grenade range; with 155mm they can get about 80yds from the barrage, which puts you a lot further from the enemy when it passes them. So why is 155mm used for medium/heavy forces? Because they can ride up to the enemy in protected vehicles - infantry on foot cannot. M777 is "available" although UK military is not buying ANY at present. Indeed, even 19 Brigade in its new "light" format is converting from AS90 to 105mm light gun.

'Cdo 21 in doubling their fire support makes them quite "heavy" for light infantry; and increases ground speed to 30mph' 'So why is 155mm used for medium/heavy forces? Because they can ride up to the enemy in protected vehicles - infantry on foot cannot' I can see given the role, support and force make-up of Commando-21 that you would prefer 105mm guns to move. If RM ever got serious about advancing at pace they might want a gun that could keep up. I took the topic to mean 'How can we make the RM a medium/heavy force?'. I would also concider fast amphib armour (air tracked), attack helos and a few F-35s as a combined arms force. I don't seriously expect the RM to go this route. They lack the logistic support (fuel and ammo weight as you pointed out) and a larger RM (division size) would be needed to justify that level of embeded combined arms and logistic lift. Such a heavy RM division could still detatch a RM regiment for a light role. Is there a call for heavier marines? The US seem to think so. Could the UK justify it? Only at the expense of army formations. Personally, given the historical requirement and geographical situation of the UK, I think that it would be a more useful force than the existing RM with army/RAF support.

"more useful than the existing RM with army/RAF support" Define useful. 3 Cdo Brigade are the most experienced UK formation. These guys fought in Burma from 1941, took the Jap surrender in Hong Kong in 1945, Malayan Emergency (1948-53), led the Suez assault (1956 - first use by anyone of helicopter assault), Malaya/Indo Confrontazi (1962-66) and only returned to the UK in 1976 where they re-roled for mountain/arctic in Norway; they did Falklands 1982, northern Iraq 1991, Afghanistan 2001/2 and were the first allied troops into Iraq 2003 capturing the Darfur Peninsular oil port, pipeline and tanks - hence none of the eco damage everyone was worried about. The UK military have always had RM and Army commandos. Since 1945 the RM provide the infantry, signals, logistics plus some engineers; the Army provide artillery and a few logisticians while the navy provide medical (just as in the US). This is a marine organization with expert support from army units trained to RM commando standard. What is wrong with using the best available? Tri-service organization at its best. "light organization" No. Individual commando companies and commando units may be able to operate on light scales but they are issued with heavy scales; and the brigade has a huge War Reserve. Adding 105mm artillery increases the weight PER MAN from 150lbs to 1 ton. This brigade is designed as a "come as you are" formation - to take by assault and hold/advance in isolated areas on its own, specifically in difficult mountain terrain. "could have 155mm" Yes. But then the weight increases or the firepower reduces. Yes, the shells are bigger, but the volume of fire matters. AND, infantry on foot cannot get as close to enemy positions when following a 155mm barrage as they can when following 105mm. And the 105mm are firing faster. An added advantage, the brigade uses the same ammunition as the Royal Navy 105mm guns on all their warships. One Vickers Mark 8 automatic 105mm has the same rate of fire as a 6 gun 105mm battery; and all their warships (except 4) have this gun. Not only is ammo in ready supply, but their NGFOs (Naval Gunfire Observers) are trained to control land, naval, and air strike. 3 Cdo is already heavy for a light-weight force because it has to be "independent"; it is doubling unit organic firepower and adding more land mobility. If it gets any heavier it will have problems executing its dual missions or amphibious and "anywhere but temperate" mountain warfare.

Worcester, while I agree with the vast majority of that last post, where did you get the idea that the 105mm artillery used by the RM is common to the ship artillery in the RN? The standard ship gun you refer to is, in fact, 114mm (4.5").

For all th ealleged advatage of th elight 155mm. One thing has not been made lighter and that is its ammuniton and that still has to be facotred in as an increased burden on the logistics forces. The 155 still requires more deck space than a 105 also.

My only problem with Commando 21 is that I am not ready to give up on having three maneuver elements.

I like the idea of the navy and land forces using the same ammo (105/114 whichever). I don't advocate using 155mm art. exclusively. The intention is to have the reach required to counter THEIR 152/155mm counter battery fire so that the 105/114 s can set up a rolling barrage to support troop advances. The 'come as you are' formation does not need to come half equiped with the right logistic support. The UK has the ability to land a dozen tanks on a beach and keep them in ammo, why not ammo wagons for 155mm guns in later waves?

'GCE- Consists of a Battalion Landing Team: 1 Marine Infantry Battalion: 1 HQ company 3 Rifle Companies 1 Weapons Company 1 Assault Amphib. Platoon: 13 Amphib Assault Vehicles 1 Light Armored Recon Platoon: 6 LAV Armored Vehicles 1 Artillery Battery: 6 155mm Howitzers 1 Tank Platoon: 4 M-1 tanks 1 Recon Platoon 1 Shore Control Party 1 Engineer Platoon ACE- Air Combat Element: Medium Helicopter Squadron 6-8 CH-53E Super Stallions 12 CH-46 Sea Knights 3 UH-1N Hueys 4-8 AH-1W Cobras 6 AV-8 Harriers' And yet you think that the RN would have logistics problems with a 155mm battery? I think that they should at least have the option. Some missions require more of independance than of expedition. .

I am not sure where you are going with this. Giving the make up of a US Marine Expeditionary Unit is not a fair comparasion. The United States has the amphibious assets to support such a force the RN Navy does not. Even within the MEU ther are for more assets to support a 155 Battery than there are in a Marine Commando. If you look at Helicopter lift alone a MEU has much more heavy lift than a Commando. If I remember correctly back to my Marine Corps days (when they had a mix of artillery) you could lift an entire 105mm Battery plus 800 to over 1000 (depending on packaging ) in 14 lifts using CH-53s. Or you can get the bare minimum of the battery 6 guns and 120 round in 7 lifts. For a complete 155mm battery it required about 16 lifts and you would only get about 400 rounds ashore with it using CH-53s. Just because 155s are not part of the commando TO&E does nto mean theycould not be made available. Scorpion Light Tanks where not part of the Commandoes or Paras organization but they were available in the Falklands. FOr my money the Mairne MEU artillery assets shold be changed from a single 1555 battery to one 105mm battery and a 120mm mortar battery (towed). For other operations (like GWI and GWII) a MAGTF should have an SP 155mm Battery the French like Caesar and a HIMARS Battery alosng withe the 105s and 120mm mortars available based on METT-T.

'I am not sure where you are going with this. Giving the make up of a US Marine Expeditionary Unit is not a fair comparasion. The United States has the amphibious assets to support such a force the RN Navy does not.' Given that UK is an island nation with too small a population to sustain a continental occupying force, we should put the shifting emphasis of our forces even more over to Marines/Paras supported by sea and air power. Our heavier tanks and artillery were of no use in the Falklands due to lack of landing capability for them. Once a beachhead is established it is possible to get scorpions ashore, but Helo lifted M777's would resist counter attack much better than lighter artillery or offshore/airbourne supporting fire. For a complete 155mm battery it required about 16 lifts and you would only get about 400 rounds ashore with it using CH-53s. Just because 155s are not part of the commando TO&E does nto mean theycould not be made available. Scorpion Light Tanks where not part of the Commandoes or Paras organization but they were available in the Falklands. Yes the logistic problems are great, but they need to be solved (more support ships, LHD's, etc.) rather than avoided. 'FOr my money the Mairne MEU artillery assets shold be changed from a single 1555 battery to one 105mm battery and a 120mm mortar battery (towed). For other operations (like GWI and GWII) a MAGTF should have an SP 155mm Battery the French like Caesar and a HIMARS Battery alosng withe the 105s and 120mm mortars available based on METT-T.' There is certainly a case for 105mm guns or 120mm mortars to clear/control the local area, but after the immediate problem of getting a foothold you need to ensure you can keep it. The 155mm battery has to come in pretty quickly and in good order. Only an organic unit is going to be able to do that. When a mobile unit like 3 commando pushes inland they want fire support that will be able to keep up with them. When paras land in force and need to hold out a re-supply drop zone they need something heavy to blunt attacks (market garden with the ability to hold ground due to fire support) the same is true of marines. If you wait for the army to get their kit unloaded and ready to fire you may get caught napping. I'm not saying that there is no use for MBT's and SA90's in defending Britain or after an invasion has gained port and mexaflote facilities, but if we are to have a cutting edge it must start off land and gain a defendable bridgehead. The Royal Marines are too light (G36's don't get me started) and should be organically heavier, but just as mobile. Clearly a great deal more Naval Air, Amphib. and Logistic Helo assets are required too. Maybe our army has not been cut enough. What kind of regimental reduction would it take to retain the invincibles as LPH's?