Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Marines Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: US Marines killed by the Air Force
Heorot    10/3/2003 3:20:12 AM
Does anyone have any comments on this story? Some of the marines killed at Nasiriya were done in by an A10. http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/10/02/sprj.irq.friendly.fire/index.html Clip:- “Eighteen Marines were killed in Nasiriya on March 23 as U.S. and coalition forces drove to Baghdad. Six months later, those who fought alongside them told CNN they remain bitter that an undetermined number of their friends were killed -- not by Iraqis -- but by an Air Force A-10 they hoped was coming to their rescue. Pinned down on all sides, the Marines were under fire from mortars, rocket-propelled grenades and machine guns. Outnumbered, they fought back, their dead and wounded scattered all along the aptly named "Ambush Alley." With no air support yet, Marine Capt. Dan Wittnam was elated as he looked into the clear skies to see it coming -- a U.S. warplane called a Warthog for its ability to root out and kill tanks. "The first thought that went through my mind was, 'Thank God, an A-10 was on station," he told CNN. And then, "the earth went black from the dirt being kicked up. And a feeling of absolute, utter horror and disbelief." Wittnam, the 33-year-old commander of Charlie Company, said the Warthog fired on the Marines.”
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: 1 2 3 4   NEXT
macawman    RE:US Marines killed by the Air Force   10/3/2003 7:38:11 AM
Possible answer: TRAIN like you will FIGHT! I am fairly sure that those two Air NG A-10 squadrons in Kuwaite had little or no CAS training with the Corps.
 
Quote    Reply

Sam    RE:US Marines killed by the Air Force   10/3/2003 9:48:55 PM
Marines are use to it by now. Someday we will ban the AF from our AO, at least A-10s. I posted this on the A-10 thread but here it is again: The argument I have heard on various groups is that everything but the A-10 flies to high and too fast. This leads to friendly fire incidents. The incidents don't support that.These are the only incidents that I could find If you know of more let me know. Not intentionally trying to skew facts. Non A-10 friendly fire incidents since 1990 DS- A-6E attacks Marine artillery convoy at night. INS set wrong thought they were deep in Kuwait. Afgan war - 2 incidents one with F-15 (dropped bomb on MG fire from canadians on rifle range) and AC-130 (shot up friendly convoy that was under fire) Both took place at night.F-15 pilots not informed of canadian position.AC-130 had tgt computer glitch. Iraq - F-15 Kurd/SF convoy misidentified by F-15 during CAS strike. These are the only ones I could find/know of Now for the low and slow A-10 Iraq A-10 attacks British Marine Warrior vehicles (daytime) A-10 attacks U.S. Marine AAV (daytime) (This is incident in your post) DS A-10 strafes U.S.Marine OP in Khafji (daytime) A-10 Strafes U.S.Marine Convoy FOR 4 passes (daytime) A-10 shoots U.S. Marine LAV with Maverick (daytime) A-10 attacks Royal Marine convoy of Warrior vehicles And you wonder why Marines are so anal about providing our own air support. Maybe the hog drivers have something against Marines, both U.S. and British. Low and slow provides less reaction time since you have less time in which you see the tgt area. Up high I can get good situational awareness then attack or have my wingman designate the tgt with his laser while I attack. Drop the A-10s, have F-16/18/AV-8Bs do CAS. Keep CIAS a helo only mission. Have the AF provide the equiv of ANGLICO when in support of Marines.
 
Quote    Reply

eightyone    RE:US Marines killed by the Air Force   10/4/2003 12:12:02 AM
The USAF equiv to ANGLICO are the CCT and ETACs. The problem was during Op Iraqi Freedom and Op Enduring Freedom there simply were not enough of these highy specialized troops to go around.The Air Force is currently looking at Joint training programs with the Army and USMC to solve this problem by traing more Army and Marine troops to do the same job emphasizing joint service operations to prevent more cases of friendly fire, and ease the manpower strain on the USAF.
 
Quote    Reply

Heorot    RE:US Marines killed by the Air Force -Sam   10/4/2003 9:55:55 AM
In DS incident against British Warriors there are two points. 1. The troops were regular army, not marines. 2. Although a Warthog was responsible, the attack was with Mavericks (I think) from 10,000 ft. The A10s were too high for a visual ID. The pilots knew there were no US troops in the area and therefore assumed the vehicles were Iraqi (forgetting there were British and French troops fighting in DS too). It's all down to training; if the pilots are lax, as they were in most of the cases you cited, then it doesn't matter what you are flying or at what height.
 
Quote    Reply

Sam    Oops   10/4/2003 11:48:17 AM
Didn't mean to misidentify the brits. My reference stated they were RMs. I'll make the pen change! You are dead on about the pilots. Since almost, maybe all, A-10s are NG pilots, how much training can they get? Marine FOs call Navy and Marine fast movers without problem. What is the disconnect with the AF pilots? Except that we don't speak the same language. A ground school/ Army tour for AF CAS pilots should fix that. People knock the MC but there is something good to be said when all officers go through basic infantry training.
 
Quote    Reply

JROTCKid    RE:US Marines killed by the Air Force   10/5/2003 6:23:01 PM
My Drill Instructos were both ANGLICO , said they hated AF support and would rather fight it out
 
Quote    Reply

Horsesoldier    RE:US Marines killed by the Air Force   10/5/2003 11:21:26 PM
Maybe the A-10 pilot was confused by the spiffy new USMC-peculiar uniforms . . . While the Marines may like having Marines flying their support (and I think there is a lot or merit in the idea of keeping it all under the same roof, the way they do), "Jointness" is the magic word these days. Much like combined arms, cross-training wins fights and saves lives. The actual CNN article sounds like it was an ugly scene all around -- the Marines were in really close contact, in an urban area, and had a CAS aircraft rolling in without contact with the troops on the ground, which sounds to me like a recipe for disaster without some really positive control measures (at that point, I'd probably be wearing a panel marker like superman's cape and throwing smoke grenades all over my position, just in the hope the A-10 driver would assume no Iraqi could be *that* stupid). There apparently is a TACP element somewhere in the equation, according to the article, but it sure isn't with the marines, and doesn't even know the marines are in the area -- I wonder if the marines could talk to the TACP (I'm guessing talking to the A-10 was not an option), but the article sounds like they couldn't. Does anyone know if the strike was eventually waved off, or did the plane leave on its own? I can't recall if the article specified. That far into the scenario, I'm not inclined to blame the A-10 driver, at least not wholly -- the Marines on the ground taking the fire were not to blame either, but someone higher up in the chain should have been resolving and deconflicting these sort of situations before they developed. Then, however, you have this guy shooting up an AAV7 -- if I'm an A-10 pilot and I can't ID armored vehicles I'm not training to do my job properly. And popping an AAV -- like the article mentioned, what else out there in the world looks remotely like an AAV? Maybe the guy was ducking and weaving due to ground fire, but with something like an A-10, I think you'd have to obey Rule #1 of Rabbit Hunting I learned when I was eight or so -- if you can't ID the target, you can't shoot it. This looks a bit too much like the Canadians in Afghanistan again, I think, though I hope it is not as clear cut as the debacle.
 
Quote    Reply

JROTCKid    RE:US Marines killed by the Air Force   10/6/2003 4:50:36 PM
If you get a chance read the book "Jarhead" it mentions the attack of the A 10 on an LAV and its really up there with Caputo's "Rumor Of War" in the reflective sense . They guy makes no grandness of war and tells it like it really is
 
Quote    Reply

Sam    RE:US Marines killed by the Air Force   10/11/2003 1:08:55 PM
It doesn't seem like the A-10 talked to the 1/2 TACP, or even a TF Tarawa controller. Sounds like, from this and other articles I've read, That he/she talked to a AF controller at the JTF level. Somewhere in the food chain, someone forgot to tell the AF that Marines were in Nasiriya. So the ball got dropped higher on the food chain than the battalion/regiment level. They could have been working some false assumptions. The tanks that were suppose to support the assault had been diverted to "rescue" the Lynch convoy. Bravo 1/2 was stuck in the mud in their AAVs. A commander at a higher level may have assumed that 1/2 would pospone the attack until either the tanks are Bravo could join the fight. I still have to ping the pilot for not being able to ID a AAV. Nothing else looks like one and very few countries operate it. Iraq not being one of them. Joint is the way to go. The AF does give good CAS. Part of the problem being that the A-10 community is neglected and not considered "the CAS platform" by the AF. F-16s get the CAS training budget.
 
Quote    Reply

Heorot    RE:US Marines killed by the Air Force   10/13/2003 4:01:53 AM
Is that true? The only aircraft in the inventory specifically designed for CAS is not considered to be a CAS platform? Wierd if true.
 
Quote    Reply
1 2 3 4   NEXT



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics