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Subject: Marine Aircraft Crisis?
oregon_x_marine    8/15/2003 11:34:58 PM
From the blog "Intel Dump:" http://www.philcarter.blogspot.com/ "...for example, this mindset will accept cutting the Marine helicopter fleet to equip it with V-22 Ospreys. Yeah, yeah, longer range, more speed, more capacity, great. Also more maintenance, more expense if you lose one, hence more protective systems and doctrines focused on protecting the investment, hence even higher cost, longer development time, less availability, and sometimes even reluctance to take risks with the equipment. Bad idea. Personally, I'd rather replace the CH-53s and CH-46s with updated version of conventional helicopters (the EH-101 is an example), which work just fine and use proven technology. That way more Marines can be air-transportable, which lets the Marines do more interesting things with concepts like seabasing and widens their choice of tactics on the ground." In addition to the above reference, Strategypage recently posted a blog about Marine attack Cobras, UH-1's and Army Apaches gettting shot to pieces in GW2. Queston! Does the vulnerability of the Cobra, the age of the CH-46 & -53 fleets and purchase of very, very expensive V-22s and JSFs in limited numbers put Marine aviation in jeopardy??
 
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:Marine Aircraft Crisis?   8/16/2003 2:26:11 PM
I may have missed it, but there were no Marine copters "shot to pieces". It was the Army Apaches. You realize that the Corp has to make cost decisions because of the limited funds. In some ways the same things that smaller nations do all the time. It would be nice to have better attack helios, but the Corp has made the best use of the Cobras. Use them more effectively than the Army does its own attack helios. But not a fair comparison, since we control our own fixed wing assets. Osprey issue is with the transport helios. There is another topic about this, but do I think its a mistake? Yes. Corp used to be known for making its dollars stretch. Now it seems we have officers who are just as dumb as the other services (thats being nice). From a dollar viewpoint, it would seem to be more cost effective to upgrade some helios and purchase existing helios. But try explaing to a guy who owns a boat, that its nothing more than a hole in the water that your pour money into. You will get the same dumb look. JSFs... As a replacement for the Harriers, I think this is a wise choice. If anything, they should drop the other two versions and concentrate on the VTOL(?) version only for the Air Force and Navy. But thats politics. Aviation in general is in a crisis period. The cost of aircraft is making everyone purchase smaller and smaller numbers, in turn, driving the price up. A viscious Catch-22. Been that way for years. I haven't read much about Marine aviation working on UCAVs, but that will be the future. Especially since UCAVs flying off of amphib assault ships will give them the combat power almost equal to a US style carrier. Lastly, Marine aviation could use some reduction. Having Marine squadrons flesh out the Carrier Air Wings is a start. But it needs to be done to all the CAWs and then a hard look needs to be taken at whats left over.
 
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oregon_x_marine    RE: Cobra Damage in GW2 and other questions   8/16/2003 11:22:13 PM
From Strategypage archives: "August 2, 2003: Although the U.S. Marines did not lose any attack helicopters in Iraq, they had 49 of their 58 AH-1 and UH-1 choppers shot up so badly that they needed extensive repairs. The marines, like the army, use tactics that allow the armed helicopters to operate over fifty kilometers in front of friendly troops. This tactic has been around a long time without really being exposed to an enemy that is fighting back. The 1991 Gulf war had a ground battle that was over so quickly, against a demoralized Iraqi army, that the helicopters did not have much opportunity to get shot at a lot. But now the army and marines have both seen what a feisty foe on the ground can do to their helicopters. Before the fighting was over in Iraq, helicopter units commanders had changed their tactics, partly because of all the damage their machines were receiving, partly because the ground units were calling for more helicopter gun ships to provide "top cover" for them. This the gunships were happy to provide, as it gave them lots of targets, and a chance to work closely with the troops on the ground. This will probably be the official tactics in the future." I guess planners are always caught up in the quality vs. quantity argument. I just can't figure out why the Corps has such a hard-on for the V-22. Sure it's a Porche, but the Corps needs a flying truck. That seems to be a no-brainer. Since the Air Force wants to get rid of the A-10, why doesn't the Marines (or the Army) scoop them up?
 
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Shaka of Carthage    RE: Cobra Damage in GW2 and other questions   8/17/2003 12:45:15 AM
Funny thing is that I read that as well. Just forgot about it. If I was a optimist, I would think the thing about the V-22, is that there are too many careers and reputations at stake to admit they were wrong. If I was a cynical man, the people who are pushing the V-22, will probably end up with jobs working for the V-22 firms. Air Force will give up the A-10s, if they don't have to give up any budget dollars. Thats one of the reasons the Army won't get them. The Marines will probably wait until they are allocated to Reserve and Nat'l Guard units, then grap the surplus machines for scrap value. Its all about politics.
 
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oregon_x_marine    RE: service politics   8/17/2003 1:34:29 AM
You make a good point about the V-22. I hate being cynical, but it does make sense. I'm saddened but not surprised by the inter-service rivalry. One decent proposal I've heard about was put forward by Bill Owen, a retired Navy flag officer. He admits to the service politics and suggests that there be a 16 man panel, 1/2 civilian DOD and 1/2 uniformed military, who draft certain budgets. A relative of mine was involved with the development of the "Prophet" combat intl system. Are you familair with this project?
 
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Idaho    RE: Osprey   8/17/2003 3:43:45 PM
I am curious about the current viewpoint that the Marines really, really :-) want the V-22. I seem to remember way back (maybe 10 years ago) that it was a program that the politics saved despite the fact? that the Marines did not want it. Anybody else remember that?
 
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Shaka of Carthage    RE: service politics and Osprey   8/17/2003 7:20:19 PM
oregon_x_marine No, I am not familar with the program you mentioned. Idaho Yes, I remember it. Thats some of the things the younger members forget, especially those in the current day Corps. When the Osprey was proposed, many Marines testified that it was a waste of Marine resources. The Corp has never been extravagent with the money it spends. But as you mentioned, politics took over and the program was "saved". Years go by, and now you have Marine generals who believe in the program. Now, here is where you have to be careful. One side will tell you that those Marine Generals have sold out, just like all the other service politicians in uniform have. Want proof, just look at the careers the Marines who supported the Osprey have once they retire. Its a sympton Mr Dunnigan explains quite well. In peacetime, combat veterans are killed off by paper bullets and politicians in uniform make the decisions. It ends up becoming about pork politics, not efficiency. Osprey, Naval Gunfire support and Close Air Support are just three examples of how things are manipulated and twisted to fit someones political agenda. So you end up with the young Marines buying into the brainwashing. The guys who oppossed it have learned to keep thier mouths shut or have ended up as civilians. If we end up in a "play" war, like Iraq, then we can identify the problems and try to fix it. If we get into a "real" war, we'll still be able to identify the problems and fix it, but there will be quite a bit of Marine blood foolishly wasted as well.
 
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Sam    RE: service politics and Osprey   8/18/2003 6:06:07 PM
I too remember that. Al Grey was the one that was worried that we would spend ourselves into the army. But, as I see it, when the Osprey became the beast that wouldn't die we started developing doctrine around it. We even got the navy to design ships with Osprey in mind. When Chuck Krulack became CMC Sea Dragon/OMFTS/EMW/From the Sea became the way we planned to fight. Those rely on all three legs of the triad of LCAC/AAAV/Osprey. Now we have to have it or remake the Corps doctrine. The EH-101 or CH-60S won't work and I state why in the Osprey thread in the Naval Air board. It is a big gamble but worth it when it comes online. Or if she dies again, It will have destroyed the airwing.
 
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Sam    RE: Cobra Damage in GW2 after a little research   8/18/2003 6:46:23 PM
Strategy page is the only place I read about extensive cobra damage. Gen Amos did say that he had 49 cobras that had taken damage, not all severe, not all on missions deep in the enemy rear, and he stated only 1 cobra went 45 miles behind the front lines. I think alot of this was before the ground war. If they followed the doctrine used in DS. Most were doing what cobras were meant to do. Fly Close In Air Support for the Marines and Royal Marines. Every AAR I read noted the outstanding service from them. This from Marine Gunners, 0306, who like nothing and find fault in everything.
 
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Crusader    RE: Cobra Damage in GW2 after a little research   8/20/2003 11:11:29 AM
I do recall seeing a picture on either Fox or MSNBC of an AH-1 that had gotten 'shot down' due to being near an explosion.on the ground, but I have not found anything on it on the web.
 
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mike26270    RE: Cobra Damage in GW2 after a little research   6/4/2004 7:35:51 PM
There was not one single H-1 "shot down" in OIF I. There was more than one that had to land right quick, and one that crashed after they flew through a secondary after they shot an ammo dump - but not one H-1 (Cobra or Huey) was shot down.
 
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