New USMC Section organisation

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Subject: New USMC Section organisation
interestedamateur 2/7/2006 9:53:06 AM

Some news in this weeks JDW regarding this. Main facts: - Infantry sections reduced to 12 men. - The spare 3 men are going to the platoon HQ unit to form a 2nd platoon HQ (under the Platoon Sergeant) so as to provide continuous 24 hr platoon C2. Aim is to allow dispersed operations over a wide area. - Each section will contain a rifleman who can call in close air support This looks sensible (a bit like a SOG A-team), but won't the fact that a section leader is now presumably part of a fire-team make his job much harder? The 1/3 Marines have already tested this concept in Iraq by the way.

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stinger 11/5/2007 1:01:48 AM

referring to the 10 man squad the Germans had in ww2 built around a mg-42 gun team is pretty impressive, i don't know how many squads they had in a platoon, but if somebody know the mtoe of that, that would be cool. also does the current German army still made up into a 10 man squad ??thank you

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SCCOMarine 11/5/2007 1:12:20 PM

If you ask me - okay, so nobody did, I'll tell you anyway

- things are more of a squad fight than ever. With that in mind.....the USMC should stick with the traditional 13 man squad of three fire teams.

I thought the C2 team at squad level sounded interesting to begin with. The more I think about the proposal the more it seems too specialized. It seems like the squad wouldn't be so much of a rifle squad anymore but a big recon/forward observer/CAS direction team. Is that really what's needed in the "Three block war?"

There,s 1 thing you have to keep in mind about that, the DO Squad Ldr is being trained to handle up to 6 additional Marines as attachments, depending on the mission.

You have to remember that in the mindset of mission flexibility the 12man squad(C2 & 2xFTs) is just a base. A Marine BN Weapons Co is huge, there,s more than enough MG/Assault/Mortarmen to beef up the squads when missions dictate.

There,s also talk of attaching CI/HumInt, UAV, and SigInt Dets to the Squads, the potential Task List is long.

That C2 capability is necessary to be able to operate in those various formations for those missions.

Also the DO squad will not always operate in that structure, which is why they designed no changes to the DO Plts T/O and Personnel. Making it able to switch back & forth btw DO and Traditional Structure depending on the mission.

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SCCOMarine 11/5/2007 1:16:06 PM

Carl S has it "Semper Flexibility"

But in my day we call it "Semper Gumbee"

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longrifle 11/5/2007 10:04:14 PM

"referring to the 10 man squad the Germans had in ww2 built around a mg-42 gun team is pretty impressive, i don't know how many squads they had in a platoon, but if somebody know the mtoe of that, that would be cool. also does the current German army still made up into a 10 man squad ??thank you" - stinger

I've got a link to a translation of the WWII German squad manual. It's a lengthy pdf document of 129 pages but it's worth printing out and saving for students of the rifle/infantry squad.

h**p://ahecwebdds.carlisle.army.mil/Data/tmp/linearize_objYAsFmXks3WgmXh9DXXTYBjpHeRrj04STIHw+HaHE8CGo5E3lnZvi8WV+Sih0SjGTtvtfEgO60_sLHep+SQTTvQCFAsLTddoGimPjBj9mK09PAslnIxyQ__.pdf

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longrifle 11/5/2007 10:08:00 PM

Sorry that link made the page so broad, I know that makes reading troublesome, but that's the only way I could get it to work. You'll have to cut and paste it in. It's a worthwhile document for the historical factor alone.

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Sabre 11/19/2007 1:35:06 PM

Of course, it varied depending on the type of division and what year it was, but IIRC, German infantry platoons generally had 4 squads of 10-men each, at least in the beginning.

I'm a little puzzled about why people are so eager to dump the M249 SAW. I loved that weapon, it was a dream to fire and you could carry plenty of ammunition (a 100 round-belt of 7.62 weighs about 7 pounds - that is no joke, when you are carrying 600 rounds).

Granted, there is much to be said for the M240 and MG3 / MG42... and the titanium M240 cuts unloaded weight down to 17 pounds (!) - I wouldn't have believed that, but I have held one... that certainly beats the M60 that I had to lug around the woods in N. Carolina. I would certainly be a fan of having an M240 in each squad, along with at least 1 SAW, in case the 240 "went down" for whatever reason.

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Carl S 11/22/2007 10:01:18 PM

"Again, here's two different examples of tactical success from WWII: the USMC settled on a 13 man squad, subdivided into three fire teams, with three M1s and one BAR per team,"

This is oversimplyfying a bit. The squad described was set in early-mid 1944, but the company contiued to evolve. MMG were continued to be added to the company, and in most battles the battlaion HMG were distributed to the companys. It was not unusual for a company commander in late 1944 or 1945 to have up to ten MMG/HMG at hand. Distributing part of these down to squad level was not unusual. There also the engineer trained assualt teams in the battalions/companys of the late war. These were distributed through the company and in many cases made a fourth or fifth (a MMG being the other) team in a squad.

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Carl S 11/22/2007 10:03:45 PM

Carl S has it "Semper Flexibility"

But in my day we call it "Semper Gumbee"

That was familar as well, but I thought the term too obscure for the others.

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Carl S 11/22/2007 10:08:05 PM

"If a true AR is adopted I'd drop the SAW altogether for a GPMG team and a DM but the general ideal is the same. Guns will often be attached directly to squads anyway in, especially in a "Three block war," so formalize the doctrine. "

Not sure what you mean here? Formalize the doctrine of attaching MG to squads when needed? Or make a MG a permanent part of the squad?

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ambush Squad Size 11/23/2007 2:23:30 PM

The argument seems to boil down to two general arguments; size of the rifle squad and how it is to be equipped.

As for size we have the universal truth from General Gray and already posted: "I never saw a hill captured by a TO platoon."

If we accept that even by chance you go into battle with a full strength squad attrition over time will not leave it that way. So look at it this way: If you start out with a 13 man Squad and attrition reduces by 1/3^rd you still have a 9 man squad. If you start out with a 9 man squad then you are down to 6 with same rate of attrition.

Another factor in the large squads favor is the distribution of the load they have to carry. If you make GPMGs or other weapons part of the squad TO&E or attach them it means more ammunition and equipment that must be hauled around by the squad. The Marines of today are already carrying around more than I had to. A reduced squad leaves fewer bodies to spread that burden to.

If distributed Ops are in the future you can look to large squads anyway either through an increased TO&E or more likely through attachments. A large 3 Fire Team Squad lends itself to adaptation to DO with its 3 Fire team leaders than does a smaller squad.

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