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Subject: Talley M72E8/M72E10 LAW Versus the Common Rifle Grenade
EKG    5/19/2006 12:25:10 AM
When I first saw that improved versions of the LAW were being made I was excited. Then I got to thinking... The LAW probably has about the same penetration through RHA as an RPG, ~12 inches. However, the venerable Energa 75 rifle grenade has penetration of ~15 inches. Effective ranges of both are around 200 meters, though realistically the Energa has a direct fire range of more like 150 meters. So, is the 50 meter more range of the LAW worth the 5.5 (versus approx 2 pound or less Energa) pound weight, and the over 2 foot closed length (versus about a foot for the Energa)? When you look at it the rifle grenade is generally less bulky as well, and doesn't leave a firing signature like I assume the LAW does. The M72E8 would leave less signature then the regular M72, but it would also weigh more. The M72E10 might... might... be better in the anti-personnel role, but then again a RG similar in size and weight to the Energa would be absolutely devastating at close range if made into a pure fragmentation type. I don't believe the Energa is a bullet pass through type RG, but with modern technology this could be solved as well. What do you think? Personally I think its just to compensate for the lack of the 5.56's power, which correspondingly reduces rifle grenade range.
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doggtag    RE:Talley M72E8/M72E10 LAW Versus the Common Rifle Grenade   5/19/2006 8:54:22 PM
Talley 66 mm HEAT Rocket M72 LAW>M72 LAW @ Designation-Systems.Net On that site (citation #4 at the bottom), and also coming from the DTIC/NDIA website,> (it's about halfway down the page) is a roughly 11.0 MB PowerPoint presentation on A History of the M72 LAW and Current Improvement Programs (by Nicholas Duke). (is that the info you saw, EKG? I think it's RUAG of Switzerland what markets a 450mm penetration HEAT warhead for the 66mm LAW also.) The M72 in current forms is definitely not our grandfather's Bazooka. And on the note of what can be achieved with rifle grenades, I so wish there was at least one decent site out there that had credible info on the Olin Corp RAAM Rifleman's Anti-Armor Weapon, a munition weighing about 1&3/4 kg and was (judging by pictures) about a foot and a half long (including a few inches of stand-off probe), which claimed a performance of ">400mm" against armor, and a range of 250m (by the pictures, it's roughly the same diameter as the round handguards of the M16A1 & up); and also the Brunswick Corp RAW Rifleman's Assault Weapon, a roughly 4&3/4kg "toffee apple"-looking munition, containing a 140mm diameter warhead holding 1kg of plastic explosive, a small tube of propellant (was spin-stabilized), claiming a maximum range of 1500m and penetration of 200mm of concrete (with considerable blast debris & fragmentation, no doubt). Both of these (by the pictures in books I have) are shown being fitted & fired from US Army M16s (the RAAM was a rocket-boosted bullet trap rifle grenade, while the RAW had a rather clumsy-looking gas trap system that attached to the rifle's business end, bleeding muzzle gas into some kind of chamber to intiate the RAW's propellant, spin-up & launch), with both claiming to have recoil no worse than a 12 gauge shotgun (pictures are shown firing off the shoulder in kneeling positions), not something really difficult for most military-trained shooters. (these two munitions can both be seen in Greenhill Military Manuals' Infantry Support Weapons: Mortars, Missiles, and Machine Guns, pp 74-77, c1995, ISBN 1-85367-210-6, Ian V Hogg.) I haven't found anything useful (Google, Yahoo) about the Energa 75 rifle grenade. Anyone have a link? For those interested, there is a veritable gold mine of symposium topics on all manner of military goodness dating back to 2001 on NDIA's index (click on each year's Proceedings tab, then take your pick of meetings, gatherings, symposiums, and the like, each filled with numerous "cool stuff" links to scores of pdf- and ppt-based presentations). FREE!>
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Professor Fickle    newer Rfle Grenade links>   5/19/2006 10:11:32 PM
The Israelis are doing amassing work with rifle-grenades! They are also upgrading some, with a variable airburst fuse! That Combined with special fragmentation Round (with steal ball berings around the shell to create a fling Claymore) Look> I believe they are developing a TV guided Rifle-grenades & will have a HEAT Round! (could take out an APC) I assume it will have some rocket motor. Freaking kick a$$, HUH!
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doggtag    RE:newer Rifle Grenade links   5/19/2006 10:42:54 PM
-> I believe they are developing a TV guided Rifle-grenades & will have a HEAT Round! (could take out an APC) I assume it will have some rocket motor.>Firefly ALT=Firefly>>Rafael's Firefly 2-page pdf (how long before someone squeezes in control mechanisms and even a 20mm shell's worth of explosive, enough to ignite a fuel tank or destroy a shell inside an artillery tube?) I've been beating that drum for a long time (OK, only the past few years). Seeing just how small video capture technology can be fabricated (those camcorders that fit in the palm of your hand have stabilized CCD cameras barely 1/10 the actual bulk of the camera), I don't see any reason why miniature PGMs aren't battlefield-ready now (seeing as how fast the US military has accepted predominantly-COTS UAV systems into inventory, where are the guided mini-missiles?). I am waiting for the day where an infantryman can fly his mini-PGM, via "missile cam" perspective, down the barrel or through a hatch of an MBT or other AFV, considerably limiting collateral damage and risks to non-combatants. War will take on a whole new meaning when, by using a nature-mimicking UAV, I can spy on an enemy soldier and, using my mini-PGMs, I can strike precisely every rifle, MG, or anti tank rocket he picks up right out of his hands. You have succeeded in defeating an enemy when he becomes too frightened to even pick up a weapon against you.
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YelliChink    RE:newer Rfle Grenade links>   5/20/2006 1:04:08 AM
Israelis sometimes come up with some really good ideas, but, most of the time, they don't even use their small arms. Some the reasons are purely budget constraint, and some other reasons can be categoried as "it sucks". I don't know which kind of reasons resulted to their issued M16/M203 instead of their rifle-grenade; maybe just a nostagia for the old times of European weapons, or maybe it sucks. Thanks for the info, but I'll stick with attached grenade launchers so that I can load a grenade in the launcher and still be able to fire rifle rounds. dogtag- cheap CCD chips won't survive trememdous vibration in modern weaponery. That's why it sucks in budget plan.
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YelliChink    I forgot sometime.....   5/20/2006 1:19:24 AM
Both FNC and FAL can shut their gas-regulator off JUST FOR SHOOTING RIFLE GRENADE, and, yes, even for bullet-trap type. If you don't cut it off, well, it might still work in FAL and FNC, but it might cause potential hazzard in M16, because excessive gas might destroy the action or cause fail-to-eject more frequently. I can't imagine what will happen if RAAM went into service. The first thing would be a nickname "giant condom" and followed by field manual instruction of how to make an anti-tank trap out of RAAMs and disguise them as giant condoms.
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Horsesoldier    RE: newer Rfle Grenade links>   5/20/2006 8:18:35 PM
>>Yellichink I disagree. Unless the grapes your talking about are puny 40mm rounds with a casualty radius of 5 meters. Modern, 200+ meter range anti-personnel rifle grenades can have a casualty radius of 30-50 meters easily. The M203 has a maximum effective range against stationary point targets of 150-175 meters. So in light of these facts, what do you think of rifle grenades now?<< I think you'll never get the same accuracy out of a rifle grenade as you get out of a 40mm grenade launcher. Simple physics and weapon construction preclude it. This inaccuracy is part of the reason why most armies have dropped rifle grenades in favor of 40mm grenade launchers and seperate anti-tank rockets or recoilless rifle designs. >>If your going to use the same tired recoil argument, most if not all of our combat soldiers would be very happy to have an effective modern rifle grenade with a casualty radius of even 30 meters, for a tradeoff of a stout punch of the shoulder.<< I fear we are getting a bit deep into the armchairs and theorizing here. A bit of commentary from the real world: "Hold the butt under the right armpit, never lean it on the shoulder" are part of the verbatim instructions for short range fire of rifle grenades from the FN FAL manual. The "stout punch" you're describing, at least with those weapons, would break your collar bone, since recoil is about momentum, not kinetic energy, and momentum is simple mass time velocity -- lobbing a 1000+ gram projectil downrange at any velocity won't do anyone any favors. In any case, firing at range requires indirect fire with the weapon aimed upward at a 45 degree angle, which is where accuracy goes out the window (as well as significantly slowing down rate of engagement -- I'm guessing a good operator can get enough 40mm grenades downrange in the same time it takes to ready and fire one rifle grenade and get another loaded that any superiority in casualty radius not already lost to inaccuracy is lost to superior rate of fire).
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bunkerdestroyer    RE: newer Rfle Grenade links>   5/20/2006 9:02:28 PM
Prof. wow! that is too cool! I think it is as nifty as the new 6 rd 40mm grenade launcher...another awesome tool -but I did not hear what kinda door it will defeat-what about those metal gate doors around a walled house/building that sometimes are hard to get open/require ramming? I wonder if this would be able to blow them open, or just a hole in it? any thoughts?
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:Talley M72E8/M72E10 LAW Versus the Common Rifle Grenade   5/20/2006 9:13:17 PM
I dont know enough about rifle gernades to be sure, but I always believed them to be only moderately accurate and of moderate potency, esp when used against anything except troops in the open... the 40mm is more accurate(fired plenty of them) and would have an easier time taking out a bunker or a room position from 50/100 yds away due to a more direct line of fire..... I saw plenty of video in iraq of good 40mm shots-one was(and alot of the readers of this page probably saw it also) about 150 yds away-a sniper zoned in on some marines on a roof top...they finally located him and a supershot sent the 40mm right to the window-about 150m away and probably 4-6 stories up....AWESOME now the law......I had also seen a couple of pictures of laws in action! I could not believe it. Guess I wasnt up to date, but per this site, I saw a picture of a marine with 2 strapped to his back and another with 3 and possibly one in his hand to fire. cant do that with an at-4. boy, I bet he packed a punch......super awesome for taking out building positions in an urban setting....... so, I would say, forget the rifle gernade...minus some great updated tech, the 40mm and def. the law are far more accurate...and I think more usefull. No reason a squad of marines couldnt carry 1-2 each strapped to their backs-only 10-11lbs...what hella fire power!!!!!
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Horsesoldier    RE: newer Rfle Grenade links>   5/21/2006 9:18:52 AM
>>-but I did not hear what kinda door it will defeat-what about those metal gate doors around a walled house/building that sometimes are hard to get open/require ramming? I wonder if this would be able to blow them open, or just a hole in it?<< Explosive breaching is a bit of a trick under controlled circumstances (i.e. different charges are better/worse for different doors or wall materials), which leaves me a bit skeptical of a one-size fits all approach you shoot from a hundred feet away. There are probably targets it is ideal for, and those that it is less than ideal for, and probably a pretty good chance that it is overkill for some with the potential of producing casualties on the other side of the breach (good if they're combatants, bad if they're women and kids, etc.).
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doggtag    RE:I forgot sometime.....(YelliChink)   5/21/2006 4:14:24 PM
-> I can't imagine what will happen if RAAM went into service. The first thing would be a nickname "giant condom" and followed by field manual instruction of how to make an anti-tank trap out of RAAMs and disguise them as giant condoms. Yeah, kind of adds a whole new meaning to the term "getting RAAM'ed in the @ss", don't it?
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