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Subject: Alternate Civil War tactics
ChdNorm    8/28/2005 1:30:10 AM
The argument is always made that the advances in the weaponry available to both sides made the tactics that were used in the Civil War obsolete. What would have been other tactics that would have negated the advances in weapons that would have both reduced casualties and secured victory?
 
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Herald12345    Things to change in the Union Army.   12/21/2007 8:13:15 PM
Poor Winfield Scott has to do it all. Mexican War solutions he would have applied if the politicians like Polk actually did, allowed during the Civil War.
   Recruiting.
   You might as well grab the Irishman and German straight off the boat and enlist him before he  has time to criminalize up, and become a disgruntled $300 bountyman. You still have the same problems teaching him how to soldier, but if you catch him before he turns Gangs of New York on you, you can train him to love the Army instead of hate it. Its what Scott did in 1848.
    You might also try to use the recruit replacement method that the Confederates had. Elite Yankee units like the Iron Brigade or the Irish Brigade were almost wiped out because they never had casualty replacement  to keep their ranks properly filled after a major battle.  If those units were handled more like Berdan's Sharpshooters with suitable recruits [volunteers] plugged in after each battle and maintained at full strength, then the miserable decline in Federal infantry that occurred after Gettysburg would not have been so pronounced  Veteran Federal infantry was ferociously good.  There wasn't just enough of it, passing on their experience to the new draftee scum............er recruits. Scott never faced this problem in the short Mexican War. He did recommend that the Regular Army be expanded to eight times its current size and that it form the core of the federal armies using this kind of recruiting. Lincoln for political reasons had to overrule the FOB.
     Sergeant's schools  are obviously a good thing to set up in bivouack. Get the Regulars to teach the Volunteers. Do you know how many  US Civil War dead could have been spared if the average sergeant just learned two simple skills? Keeping his soldiers well fed and clean could have gone a long way to halving the disease rate. Never mind teaching the sergeant how to shake out a skirmish line; how to read and use ground; or how to teach soldiers how to shoot properly and march without straggling.  Only 190,000 of the half million DEAD were shot to death . The rest were carried off by DISEASE.  Just good cooking and proper camp hygiene could have saved tens of thousands of lives. Can you see to what Army benefit that must have led, as far as recruitment, unit end strength, and combat power; if the soldiers were healthy? Once again, Old Fuss and feathers used this method to train his "volunteers" before he sailed for Vera Cruz. McClellan remembered it, and tried to apply something like it  himself. As for Grant, in 1864, he INSISTED on it for the Army of the Potomac.. 
      As for the officers, doggone.  If ever a bunch of nitwits needed  indoctrination and constant schooling, it was the  collection of  overeager types who politicked for commands or raised their own regiments. Those "gentlemen" often  couldn't get their uinits to where they were needed or  organize a properly supported attack to save their lives or the lives of their men. And in this case, that was EXACTLY what they had to do.
      This was patently a case of several thousand would be Napoleons, not having a clue as to how to  handle a latrine detail much less, a regiment. It doesn't help that as I pointed out earlier, that you have about  300 Regular Army Officers who could barely handle a regiment and most of them were Captains and Majors who were going to become your Generals. Where are you going to get the 1000 Colonels, 3000 Majors, 3000 Captains and 12,0000 Lieutenants you need? 
      You can turn a civilian railroad engineer into a military logistician easily, but you are a little short in the combat arms department. Gunners, cavalrymen, infantry platoon leaders, staff officers??????   Those clowns are  for the most part local businessmen, political hacks, schoolteachers, college professors, idiot sons of millionaires, and friends of Abe.
      You are Winfield Scott. What would you do? HMMMMMMMM? He never solved it.  It was a strictly OJT  field grade Officer Corps in the Union Army with the predictable disastrous results. It took the survivors two to four years to learn their jobs. And if George Custer is any guide of the standard cumulative results, most of the nitwits were lucky instead of good. No wonder Meade was always cursing and swearing at his staff. Snapping Turtle indeed!

Herald
   
 
          

 
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earlm    To Herald   12/21/2007 8:41:43 PM
Let's go on the WW1 thread, I will start it on the Armed Forces of the World board.
 
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Zad Fnark       12/21/2007 9:21:07 PM
You are right. Those ANV veterans weren't Sioux. They were a lot more DEADLY than any Lakota since by 1863,  most of the Confederate survivors were very good shots, who learned the care and feeding of their Enfields, as well as the use of any cover any time they could find it. 

The point I was trying to make was that regarding Allin Springfields vs muskets would not go well for the muskets.

Compared to the Spencer, the Springfield is harder to clean, and does have inferior ballistics.
What makes the Springfield harder to clean?  It's basically a straight pipe, without the chambering mechanism of the Spencer.  It's definitely easier than cleaning a musket. 

 The idiots who designed  the Model 1866  got the cartridge spacing for the breech wrong? Soldiers had to jam slugs into the void the knuckleheads at Springfoeld left to get a good gas seal or they got a face full of powder or the thing blew apart in their face?
 
I haven't heard or read this anywhere.  I've posted this question where I know at least one author on the subject posts, so I'll withhold any judgement pending more info.  I'm not necessarily doubting you, but this is news to me.  Can you recommend a source?

Disagree. The Spencer was a lobber, but it didn't suffer path dispersion, pull as hard, or  tumble bullets the way the Model 1866 did.
 
My readings indicate that the 66 gave a good account of itself, in the few disputes it was involved in.  The tumbling I'm dealing with is more my problem getting an old firearm to shine rather than some fatal flaw in the design.
 
 
Kripes, I feel I'm on some research project at school again.  Maybe I should have kept my big mouth shut and revert back to lurking.
 
I'm hoping to see a reply to the above questions from Richard Hosmer, who wrote a rather nice little reference book, The .58- and .50- Caliber Rifles & carbines of the Springfield  1865 - 1872.  He's fairly active on the board at trapdoorcollector.com and though I own a specimen, I'm not some fanboi incapable of seeing weaknesses or flaws in this rifle.  I can only go by what I've read, and my own experiences of a couple hundred rounds through this piece.  My brother did manage a 3" group at 75 yds.  The only point I was originally trying to make, was that this weapon would have made some difference during the ACW on it's own, without necessarily being the best cartridge weapon of it's day.  Especially since CSA work towards a cartridge rifle, were weak, at best.  I don't know how well the North could have ramped up production of enough Spencers to equip the whole army.
 
Staying OT a bit, I've been slowly working through Shelby Foote's narrative history of the ACW.  It's the only deep start to finish history on the subject I've really plunged into.  Any opinions on his take of events. (Yes, I know the criticisms on the lack of footnotes, etc)  Herald, your take on Halleck is the impression I'm getting from this book.

ZF-
 
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Herald12345       12/21/2007 10:07:29 PM

You are right. Those ANV veterans weren't Sioux. They were a lot more DEADLY than any Lakota since by 1863,  most of the Confederate survivors were very good shots, who learned the care and feeding of their Enfields, as well as the use of any cover any time they could find it. 

The point I was trying to make was that regarding Allin Springfields vs muskets would not go well for the muskets.

?????????????????
Howso? Volume of fire? The Enfield clearly outranged the Model 1866and by 1863 aimed Confederate marksmanship from cover was DEADLY.


Compared to the Spencer, the Springfield is harder to clean, and does have inferior ballistics.

What makes the Springfield harder to clean?  It's basically a straight pipe, without the chambering mechanism of the Spencer.  It's definitely easier than cleaning a musket. 

Basically the lands and grooves as I was stating.  That rifle was designed originally to fire Minie bullets not the ammunition [ball and cartridge similar to the Sharps] that the soldiers wound up using. The deposits the bullet laid into the grooves were burn ons that you just couldn't defoul with a rammer and a swab cloth You had to scour.

 The idiots who designed  the Model 1866  got the cartridge spacing for the breech wrong? Soldiers had to jam slugs into the void the knuckleheads at Springfoeld left to get a good gas seal or they got a face full of powder or the thing blew apart in their face?

 

I haven't heard or read this anywhere.  I've posted this question where I know at least one author on the subject posts, so I'll withhold any judgement pending more info.  I'm not necessarily doubting you, but this is news to me.  Can you recommend a source?

I have to dig through my Bruce Catton to find the exact source.

Disagree. The Spencer was a lobber, but it didn't suffer path dispersion, pull as hard, or  tumble bullets the way the Model 1866 did.

 

My readings indicate that the 66 gave a good account of itself, in the few disputes it was involved in.  The tumbling I'm dealing with is more my problem getting an old firearm to shine rather than some fatal flaw in the design.

 


It reflects the experience of Indian fighters though who complained the Trapdoor's bullet groups  tended to spread beyond 100 yard and that indeed some bullets did tumble. I just picked up on it immediately when you mentioned it.

Kripes, I feel I'm on some research project at school again.  Maybe I should have kept my big mouth shut and revert back to lurking.

 

I'm hoping to see a reply to the above questions from Richard Hosmer, who wrote a rather nice little reference book, The .58- and .50- Caliber Rifles & carbines of the Springfield  1865 - 1872.  He's fairly active on the board at trapdoorcollector.com and though I own a specimen, I'm not some fanboi incapable of seeing weaknesses or flaws in this rifle.  I can only go by what I've read, and my own experiences of a couple hundred rounds through this piece.  My brother did manage a 3" group at 75 yds.  The only point I was originally trying to make, was that this weapon would have made some difference during the ACW on it's own, without necessarily being the best cartridge weapon of it's day.  Especially since CSA work towards a cartridge rifle, were weak, at best.  I don't know how well the North could have ramped up production of enough Spencers to equip the whole army.

Enough to field 100,000 in two years? That's the history, Making  300,000 or more would be not too difficult. What would be difficult is making 2000 or more gatling guns.   

Staying OT a bit, I've been slowly working through Shel
 
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andyf       12/22/2007 12:13:12 AM
how about chambering the gatling for a lower power round and shortening the barrels? that would shave a lot off the weight of the thing.
what would the ballistics of  say the .32 smith and wesson cartridge be like through a 50 cm barrel? not long ranged, but it would kill I think
 
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WarNerd       12/22/2007 1:28:29 AM
Great, a submachine gun that takes 4men to fire.
 
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Herald12345       12/22/2007 4:42:28 AM

Great, a submachine gun that takes 4men to fire.


The heavy part of the gatling gun was the wheeled gun carriage originally used to mount it. A 50 caliber Model 1863weighed all up 110 pounds [50 kg] without the carriage.Put the thing on a sled as diagrammed  above and  you can get it in around 100 kg,  with the sledge. THAT is a full function MMG [300-1000 meters effective range]as we know the term today. You don't have to cut it down to SMG size to make it a four man lift per say. A shorter barrel of say 40 calibers might be necessary if you want to make it less awkward, but that still gives you 300-500 meters.

Herald


 
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WarNerd       12/23/2007 5:46:50 AM




andyf
how about chambering the gatling for a lower power round and shortening the barrels? that would shave a lot off the weight of the thing.

what would the ballistics of  say the .32 smith and wesson cartridge be like through a 50 cm barrel? not long ranged, but it would kill I think


WarNerd 
Great, a submachine gun that takes 4men to fire.

The heavy part of the gatling gun was the wheeled gun carriage originally used to mount it. A 50 caliber Model 1863weighed all up 110 pounds [50 kg] without the carriage.Put the thing on a sled as diagrammed  above and  you can get it in around 100 kg,  with the sledge. THAT is a full function MMG [300-1000 meters effective range]as we know the term today. You don't have to cut it down to SMG size to make it a four man lift per say. A shorter barrel of say 40 calibers might be necessary if you want to make it less awkward, but that still gives you 300-500 meters.

Herald


I could be wrong, but ".32 smith and wesson cartridge" sounds like a pistol round, not a rifle round, to me.  So this would be a submachinegun.
I should have included a reference in my post to avoid confusion.

 
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Herald12345       12/23/2007 7:07:59 AM








andyf


how about chambering the gatling for a lower power round and shortening the barrels? that would shave a lot off the weight of the thing.



what would the ballistics of  say the .32 smith and wesson cartridge be like through a 50 cm barrel? not long ranged, but it would kill I think





WarNerd 


Great, a submachine gun that takes 4men to fire.



The heavy part of the gatling gun was the wheeled gun carriage originally used to mount it. A 50 caliber Model 1863weighed all up 110 pounds [50 kg] without the carriage.Put the thing on a sled as diagrammed  above and  you can get it in around 100 kg,  with the sledge. THAT is a full function MMG [300-1000 meters effective range]as we know the term today. You don't have to cut it down to SMG size to make it a four man lift per say. A shorter barrel of say 40 calibers might be necessary if you want to make it less awkward, but that still gives you 300-500 meters.

Herald



I could be wrong, but ".32 smith and wesson cartridge" sounds like a pistol round, not a rifle round, to me.  So this would be a submachinegun.

I should have included a reference in my post to avoid confusion.


The ammunition of the provisional Model 1863 Gatling gun would be identical with the expected ammunition of the  possible general issue Spencer Model 1863 breechloading rifle, on the quite sensible principle that the machine gun should fire standard rifle bullets. So we would be using the 56-56 copper cartridged bullet that was used in the 1863 Spencer and Sharps rifles. That is most definitely not a  pistol bullet  as it was  extremely lethal to well beyond 750 yards.

A 40 caliber barrel would be  22.5 inches long. The 50 caliber version would be 28 inches long. You still have the feed mechanism , the rotating gear, the magazine guide [hopper in the first versions] the cam drive with the ram feed, the firing pin and the shell extractor-that very complicated hand-cranked clockwork adding another foor to the gatling gun's length. Chopping off eight inches of barrel doesn't affect the ballistics all that much with a black powder charge, so you get a manageable three foot length 50 kilogram gatling gun you can put on a 50 kilogram sledge. If four men can't carry a 220 pound litter load at a trot for 500 yards then there is something very wrong with those four men..

This is doable. It puts a  recognizable machine gun into Federal hands by 1863. As I mentioned above it would be very expensive.  Putting 400 Gatling guns into the Army of the Potomac for example would cost $4MUS.That costs more than all of Sheridan's cavalry horses!  And in 1863 money that is a serious dent in the war budget. Then you have to add the 2000 men specially trained to handle the gatling guns, the wagons, the horses, the huge amounts of ammunition etc.

And Stanton thought the cavalry was expensive. Wait until he gets the bullet bill!

Herald
     

 
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Carl D.       12/23/2007 10:03:10 PM

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2085/2126024184_548707dc64.jpg">
Herald


With regards to the naval part of Anaconda, the choice of the "90 day" steam powered gunboats, such as the USS Katahdin which was launched  in October 1861, at 507 tons and armed with 2 - 4 guns, was probably the best option available to the North to get enough ships on station to keep the blockage functioning.  Particularly after they'd gotten every other servicable ship still in their possession and suitable civilian vessel available and converted them for naval service.  A lot of these vessels were built with the war duration in mind, being built with un-seasoned lumber.  A problem that the USN at the beginning of the war, like the Army, was a lack of men immediately available.  Look at the number of ships at Norfolk that had to be burned to keep them out of the hands of the Confederates because there weren't enough sailors available to get them out of the base.   



 
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