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Subject: US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.
Tiber1    3/19/2005 2:06:06 AM "Service and support soldiers come from the adjutant general, finance, ordnance, transportation, quartermaster and health services branches." Just thinking about this pisses me off. Are they going to increase the class sizes or number of classes per year? Some pogue Financier or dental technician taking a slot away from a grunt or some other combat branch, just so they can have more “warrior ethos and battlefield skills?” Sure, the pogues are coming under attack more often in Iraq then other wars in the past and yes they should spend A LOT more time practicing and training their combat skills, but Ranger School? Getting a slot wasn’t easy when I was a grunt, I can just imagine how much more fun they will be to get now. Someone in the Pentagon must have failed to get in and really holds a grudge. First, everyone gets a Black Beret, now dental technicians will be running around with Ranger Tabs. They are going to be as Hardcore soon as Airborne Tabs are…Guessing you will get one in every box of MRE’s someday so little Johnny doesn’t feel left out either. I personally take some pleasure in seeing the non-combat types bitching and whining about how dangerous and complex combat really is. Makes up for all the e they used to say about us Cannon fodder back in the day. Guess we weren’t just running around playing cowboys and Indians in the woods.
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WinsettZ    RE:US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.   4/25/2005 12:06:33 AM
I thought you had to go through Airborne before going through Ranger school. Or that's just in the America's Army game? :P Jumping out of a plane will weed out your "pogues" quite nicely.
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Old Grunt    RE:US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.   4/25/2005 8:20:07 AM
"Jumping out of a plane will weed out your "pogues" quite nicely." Sorry to shatter the impression given by the recruiting commercials, but the hardest thing about jump school is the bus ride there. Even 24 years ago when I went through it was easy enough that female Air Force Cadets wouldn't break a sweat. Since that time the majority of the physical ability pre-requisites have been either dropped or lessened and the course has been shortened by a week. The reason for opening Ranger school to the non-combat arms guys is purely economic. We currently don't have enough combat arms soldiers available to make up a full class at Ranger school. The options where to close the school until the end of hostilities, conduct two classes a year, or keep the school open and fill the classes with the "pogues". Option three, the most expensive and least effective course of action, was chosen.
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ambush    RE:US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.   4/25/2005 8:40:47 PM
I have to agree. Airborne School will not weed anybody out but your exceptionally lame and lazy. I also went through it about 24 years ago and it was not very demanding. You also did not have to be jump qualified to go to Ranger school. I went Ranger School as a “leg” Marine and did not make it to jump school till about 6 months after I completed Ranger School. As long as no combat arms types are bumped out of a slot for theCS/CSS types I think this is a good idea. Ranger School above everything else is a leadership under stress course with patrolling being used as its primary instructional tool. CS/CSS can only benefit from this and so the will the Army as a whole. There is a potential downside to this. When you arrived at Ranger School you were expected to have some knowledge and experience of patrolling and other skills. Most of your CS/CSS types lack this background. This could lead to a higher school attrition rate which the TRADOC types do not like because it is basically money lost so being TRADOC bureaucrats and not soldiers their solution would naturally be to lower standards to lower attrition. The solution would be to have a selection course or some other screening process.
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WinsettZ    RE:US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.   4/26/2005 12:18:54 AM
Yes, but are you guys the "pogues" mentioned in the initial post? :]
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ambush    RE:winsetteZ   4/26/2005 12:58:22 AM
Only a pogue or REMF would be overly impressed with US Army Jump School.
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shek    RE:winsetteZ   4/26/2005 8:19:38 PM
I agree with ambush - airborne school requires you to be able to keep your feet and knees together and run at a slow pace. It isn't a course designed to weed people out.
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Tiber1    RE:US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.   4/28/2005 11:43:15 PM
Ahh, thanks old grunt, that makes sense then. Still leaves a dirty taste in my mouth to think some Finance slacker has the chance to be running around with a Ranger tab. As to ambush's worry, most of the combat arms bases had, when I was in, pre-selection courses you needed to pass before they'd bother wasting the time to send you to the School. When I was in, late 80's to early 90's, those courses were not easy even for Grunts, leaving me to wonder how a pogue is going to handle them. I doubt they spend many, countless hours in the woods across from the barracks practicing their field skills.
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shek    RE:US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.   4/29/2005 11:01:39 AM
The pre-Ranger Courses still exist, although I don't know how OIF/OEF is effecting these courses since units will take these cadres "out of hide," in others words, they don't have authorizations for these extra personnel so they task subordinate units to fill the slots. I'm sure that installations will require you to still go through a PRC prior to attending Ranger School. The other thing, the two biggest things that make you successful in Ranger School are luck (or really, not being unlucky - I had a PL who became my XO who didn't make it through his first time because his Ranger buddy was whittling a stick to become a sector stake and accidentally stabbed my PL/XO in the thigh, resulting in a medically drop) and determination. I don't think anybody from the CS/CSS world with a tiny heart is going to volunteer for Ranger School, so I'm confident that the CS/CSS guys that go will do nearly as well as the combat arms guys, and potentially even better since they know that they have to get their shiznit together (the average is 1/3 make it straight through and 2/3 eventually graduate after recycling one or more times). Also, don't underestimate how valuable a tab can be down the road. My last battalion PA got his tab when he was a PLL clerk at Bragg. The course motivated him to switch to being a medic, he made E7 at lightning speed, and then decided to go to PA school. He took very good care of the battalion's soldiers and the threat of potential rectal exams scared off the malingerers from riding sick call.
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lrsrng    RE:US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.   5/2/2005 3:24:52 PM
Ranger School is the best leadership course in the Army.The Rangers set a mark of excellence that the rest of the Army is to strive for.Everyday you wear the Tab you understand this.You live to the Ranger standards everyday and in every task.I think it is outstanding to give other soldiers the chance to improve there leadership skills.Goodluck and Godbless them.
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Old Grunt    RE:US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.   5/2/2005 4:28:16 PM
"Ranger School is the best leadership course in the Army." Your kidding right? Sorry, I just can't accept that a course consisting of Skill Level I tasks (Ok, so there are three skill level II tasks)whose sole graduation criteria is " keep your mouth shut, do it the way we tell you and don't quit" can be the premier leadership school in the United States Army. If the standard for a leadership course is for the participants to be subjected to physical and mental hardship then SERE has Ranger School beat hands down! Ranger School does not produce Rangers any more than Airborne School produces Paratroopers. Ranger Battalions produce Rangers, just as Parachute Infantry Regiments produce Paratroopers. Don't misunderstand me, I think Ranger School is awesome for Cadets, new Privates, and Second Lieutenants to get a taste of what it's like to be in the Infantry, but a Leadership Course?!! Please. And in answer to the question that is sure to come from those who's feelings have just been hurt: Yes, Class 6-82, Bob Griffiths was my Ranger Buddy.
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