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Subject: US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.
Tiber1    3/19/2005 2:06:06 AM
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=0-ARMYPAPER-712593.php "Service and support soldiers come from the adjutant general, finance, ordnance, transportation, quartermaster and health services branches." Just thinking about this pisses me off. Are they going to increase the class sizes or number of classes per year? Some pogue Financier or dental technician taking a slot away from a grunt or some other combat branch, just so they can have more “warrior ethos and battlefield skills?” Sure, the pogues are coming under attack more often in Iraq then other wars in the past and yes they should spend A LOT more time practicing and training their combat skills, but Ranger School? Getting a slot wasn’t easy when I was a grunt, I can just imagine how much more fun they will be to get now. Someone in the Pentagon must have failed to get in and really holds a grudge. First, everyone gets a Black Beret, now dental technicians will be running around with Ranger Tabs. They are going to be as Hardcore soon as Airborne Tabs are…Guessing you will get one in every box of MRE’s someday so little Johnny doesn’t feel left out either. I personally take some pleasure in seeing the non-combat types bitching and whining about how dangerous and complex combat really is. Makes up for all the e they used to say about us Cannon fodder back in the day. Guess we weren’t just running around playing cowboys and Indians in the woods.
 
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lrsrng    RE:US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.   5/2/2005 5:16:07 PM
I was pointing out that the objective of Ranger school is primaly to produce men who can lead under enourmous stress and non combat MOS soilders can beneifit beyond the combat training.As long as the the standards remain I am all for it.My feelings are not hurt Brother.Class 2-85 325th Abn Inf. 82-84 1-75th 84-88
 
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Old Grunt    RE:US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.   5/3/2005 8:14:40 AM
Red Falcon 1985, White Falcon 86-89, Red Devil 89-91, 4 Panther 94-95.
 
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shek    RE:US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.   5/3/2005 8:49:07 AM
Old Grunt, Did you have a break in service?
 
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Old Grunt    RE:US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.   5/3/2005 12:39:09 PM
No, just left the Deuce for a while.
 
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lrsrng    RE:US Army to open up Ranger School to combat support and combat service support.   5/5/2005 3:45:25 PM
Old Grunt I thought out this subject some more and having come to the conclussion that I was Temporally disoreinted.I always felt the Army as a whole should have higher standards.The non combat MOS soilders would be at big disadvatage.The attrition rate would be high[95%or greater]Home units would grow tired of spending for Soilders returning tabless.There would enevetably be pressure to lower standards to graduate more of these students.It would also place High Speed soilders in a postion of depending on noncombat soldiers to pass there patrols.Perhaps the Ranger Training Brigade could create a new Combat Leaders Course that would give them a MOS identifer.And a nice certificate.
 
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ambush    Ranger School as a leadership course   5/5/2005 9:26:33 PM
There is more to Ranger School than proficiency at skill level one task, staying awake and not quitting. Passing your patrols in a LEADERSHIP position is what gets you through the course. Leading a bunch of exhausted, sleep deprived, starving troops on a patrol is certainly a lot more difficult than filling a leadership position for a day or two at PLDC, BNCOC or ANCOC.
 
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shek    RE:Ranger School as a leadership course   5/5/2005 10:43:12 PM
I still think that opening up Ranger School to non-combat arms soldiers is a good thing as long as it doesn't deprive soldiers in a Ranger slot from attending the course. I agree that the standards of performance in combat skills in the CS/CSS world on the whole needs to be raised, but I still don't see CS/CSS folks volunteering to go unless they have the mettle to make it through. It comes down to a command issue to make sure that soldiers are prepared, and every installation that I know of has a pre-Ranger Course and most have sustainment courses to ensure that skills don't erode between completing PRC and actually going to Ranger School, and I know that I would have gotten my balls slapped for failing to send soldiers that would graduate to any Army school. I'm sure the first batches of non-combat arms soldiers will do very well since the commands and soldiers know that the spotlight will be on their performance. While graded patrols are the #1 graduation requirement and I agree that they are definitely more difficult than leadership positions in your standard Army school, if your squad/platoon can navigate, tighten the blank adapters on the M60s tight enough (I'm sure they have M240Bs by now), IMT through the OBJ, maintain accountability of your sensitive items, and stay awake, chances are high that you will pass the patrol. It doesn't require superhuman ability, but just being in charge, some competence, the ability to brief a detailed plan, and sometimes luck. That doesn't mean that it's easy, and it definitely sucks, but it doesn't require superhuman effort, just digging deep down and using what you've got.
 
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Old Grunt    RE:Ranger School as a leadership course   5/6/2005 8:47:29 AM
"There is more to Ranger School than proficiency at skill level one task, staying awake and not quitting." OK, I'm open. What do you do in Ranger School that is beyond the capability of any SPC/CPL in the 82nd, 10th Mtn, or 25th ID? I'll even go so far as to say you would be hard pressed to find any practical task performed in Ranger School that isn't done on at least a weekly basis in any light infantry unit. "Passing your patrols in a LEADERSHIP position is what gets you through the course." That is absolutely correct. There is a substantial difference however between being in a leadership POSITION and being in a position of LEADERSHIP. I've seen way too many "Major Plus" and "Honor Grad Go's" given to PL's, SL's, or TL's who were marginally effective at best but had great RTO's or members of the patrol who did all the planning, wrote the OPORD's, or just cared enough to make sure things went right. "Leading a bunch of exhausted, sleep deprived, starving troops on a patrol is certainly a lot more difficult than filling a leadership position for a day or two at PLDC, BNCOC or ANCOC." Again I must agree that this is an accurate statement. However, leading a bunch of exhausted, sleep deprived, starving troops who have no compelling personal reason to cooperate (i.e. no worry of being the next PL)and are aware of the risk of actual physical harm or death on a patrol is certainly a lot more difficult than filling a leadership position for a patrol or two at Ranger School. As for the failings of PLDC, BNCOC, and ANCOC... We could fill and entire thread with that subject!! What Ranger School does is give you indisputable evidence that you can go farther, accomplish more, and endure far greater discomfort than you thought that you could before arriving. I'll grant that it teaches the first step in being a great leader, leading oneself, but that's as far as I'm willing to go.
 
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Old Grunt    lrsrng   5/6/2005 8:55:20 AM
I personally would have preferred the two classes a year plan. I think that would have given the RI's enough of a break between classes to avoid burn-out apathy and allowed an additional two weeks of MOUT operations to be added to reflect the COE.
 
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lrsrng    RE:lrsrng   5/6/2005 1:05:29 PM
old Grunt theres good article at janes.com NTC has set up 6 Iraqi villages and they are staffed by Iraqi Amercians to train US forces before deploying.RTB could maybe institute a MOUT/Dessert phase at NTC.A week of MOUT a week of desert.
 
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