ww2 jap infantry- did they suck or what?

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Subject: ww2 jap infantry- did they suck or what?
AchtungLagg 8/24/2004 1:37:15 AM

im having a hard time understanding why the japanese infantry performed so badly (casualty wise) to us infantry during wwii. how were abilities (mis)matched in the PTO?

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Herald12345 Japanese myths and facts.> 8/30/2009 6:32:22 AM

Japanese brought bayonets and swords to a machine gun fight..

1) Infantry fought with bayonets fixed. Type 30 bayonet - overall length of 514 mm (20.25 inches). How does this effect accuracy?

What kind of coconut log parapet is he using?

2) Japanese even used the bayonets on their light machine guns (erm??)
And? It still spat bullets when the Browning jammed.

3) IJA gave little priority to marksmanship. The main emphasis was going aggressively for the kill in close combat. This was generally not that bad against chinese but not really good against ppl with sub-machine/machine guns [ British forces even in defeat described the Japanese as natoriously bad in marksmanship. Yes, i cant really prove this by facts but this was the general opinion].
I have US Army sources which I provided you. READ.

4) Jepanese snipers were suicidal. They were trained to stay and fight to the death. Even when discovered they used to stay and fight to the death in same position(that made job for the allies so match easier). While all other axis and allied snipers were frequeantly changing positions to avoid detection.
Japanese snipers were trained to fight as rear guards and overwatch to cover retreats or risky tactical movements from enemy recon. Do not confuse anecdotes with FACTS.

5) 6.5* 50mm is described as too weak round
Explain the M-1 carbine which was considered extremely effective in close combat.

6) Jepanese in many cases abandoned their field fortifications to make those famous and useless banzai charges leaving those fortifications unmanned .
Junior officers were trained in French/British WWI tactics. Later they learned. Okinawa how they learned.

7) Iwo was quite exceptional fight
Best against the best. Marines versus IJA Machukuo veterans. Of course it was going to be a nightmare.

8) Imphal logistical difficulties? There was no logistic at all. It was just another suicide which destroyed the possibility of successful defense

.
How much do you know about that campaign? Slim and 14th Army were in trouble. Without the allied air force, it would have been a disaster-a British disaster.

" The Japanese, reduced in many cases to a rabble, fell back to the chindwin river, abandoning their artillery, transport, and soldiers too sick to walk. The defeat at Kohima and Imphal was the largest defeat to that date in Japanese history" nothing fancy just wiki and i would call that far mores successful ending

Do not use Wiki.

Historynet.

And i actually like Japanese just i cant see anything that made them competant enough to fight the WW2 except the will to die.

Leyte Gulf and Ormoc.

Little remark about black&white&atom thing. If some jepanese/german general would have had a possibility to use atom weapon on allied town he would have had been 100% hanged for war crimes/crimes against humanity after the war. So i am just sticking to my 'victors justics' opinion

Victor's justice claim refuted. Lieutenant Calley example and those same Okinawa rapes. WE prosecuted our own.

Herald

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Nocturne 8/30/2009 11:53:54 AM

Some interesting facts Herald. Thanks.

1) Japanese still had some fixation on stabbing their enemies like no other ppl. And this was wrong. Fixing bayonet on machine gun reflects the thinking by itself. I never saw US or german machine gun with bayonet on it. Thats just wrong. Yeah maybe browning jammed but you havent tried to use it for stabbing ppl.

2) There is not a lot of material about Japanese snipers. Most of the accounts come from US troops there Japs had no way to do any kind of bigger movements so at least as far as i know japanese snipers where stationary targets in a spider holes or on the treetops.

3) M-1 was semi-automatic

4) Okinawa was far far too late to learn. Nearly all defensive perimeter was already bypassed or destroyed.

5) Success in Iwo i would attribute mostly to Kuribayashi. Most of the Japanese commanders would have had ordered Banzai and thats it

6) Imphal. While it was dangerous attack. It was rather too optimistic. While british forces were in a bad shape Japs were in far worse. British did't even needed to in the victory in the field Japs were at the end of virtualy non existant supply line. Allied forces just needed to drag the time while IJA was shrinking in their eyes. Even if japanese would have had been victorious in imphal they would have had been spent force anyway with all roads to rangoon open .

"Victor's justice claim refuted. Lieutenant Calley example and those same Okinawa rapes. WE prosecuted our own."

what was the sentence for Lt. Calley? 3.5 years of house arrest?with 22 confirmed killings? and 300 unconfirmed. Oh boy....

I only wanted to say that Jap infantry force wasn't performing..maybe probably mostly because of hardware shortages maybe because of tactical misjudgements maybe because of officers maybe because of logistics. Still war is war. We can discuss why it happened but the fact that not counting Malaya and China in some cases IJA was mostly failing.

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PPR In Context 8/30/2009 12:05:58 PM

People often take things out of context with regard to WWII, probably because we live in a time where the wars are relatively small and high-tech, and we have a difficult time conceiving of war on a WWII scale in which modern weapons were only beginning to emerge.

The Japanese Soldier

1) Indoctinated in the Bushido Code, the Japanese soldier was part of a tradition that the Japanese Army had not lost a war in 2,500 years (since the time of Alexder the Great). Their devotion to the Emperor and victory were so fanatical that the Army wished to continue the war even after the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. When the government decided to surrender after the Nagasaki bomb was dropped, a group of officers attempted a coup (which failed) hoping to prevent the surrender. Surrender rates among the solders were so low that few (1% or less) were ever captured alive. Lt. Hiroo Onoda did not surrender until 1974, after having conducted a small guerilla campaign on Lubang in the Philippines for 30 years.

2) Weapons and tactics--The weapons used were comparable to those used by other powers, however the officer were armed with swords (which were not just ceremonial). One of the primary reasons for their high casualty rates in the war was due to tactics. Early in the war Japan favored the mass charge (in keeping with their Bushido tradition). This worked well against a Chinese army that was made of poorly-trained constripts that carried primitive weapons like spears (if they were armed at all). It also succeeded against the colonial armies of the European powers--the Europeans did not want the military of the subject states to be too good, in the event they should revolt. However, against a modern, disciplined army, these charges proved suicidal. Because of their rigid structure and discipline, Japan was slow to adapt. It was not until the final major campaign of the war, Okinawa, that tactics were changed.

3) Logistics--The Army suffered a great deal from logistical shortcomings. Weapons were produced in a decentralized manner (i.e. parts manufactured in private homes, often made by hand)--this made them difficult to target, but production was inefficient. Weapons were thus produced in small numbers. This meant obsolete weapons often remained in service because because their replacement could not be manufactured in sufficient number. Another example of this low priority to logistics was apparent during the Guadalcal campaign, where more Japanese soldiers died from malaria than from combat (due to a lack of medicine).

4) Cruelty--Because of the Bushido Code, people who surrendered or were defeated were seen as dishonorable or sub-human. Prisoners and subjugated civilians were often treated with great cruelty. This caused resentment and resistance. For example, by the time of the Leyte Invasion, most of the Philippines had already liberated by a vast guerilla army of resistance. Americans were incited against the Japanese by the cruel treatment of Allied prisoners (such as the infamous Bataan Death March). This lack of cooperation and obedience from their occupied areas seriously undercut the Army's ability to operate.

The Atomic Bomb

The strategic bombing campaign against Japan remained largely ineffective until late in the war (Spring of 1945). This was due to the great distances the bombers travelled, which hindered guidance. Heavy cloud cover also made aborted missions frequent. Effective fighter cover drove the bombers to high altitude, which further limited their accuracy. The decentralized production used by Japan made industry difficult to target (parts were often produced in private homes rather than large factories). In early 1945, the US switched to fire-bombing cities. This was highly controversial, because it was seen as indiscriminate. However, the ineffectiveness of targeted bombings and the Japanse use of private homes to manufacture weapons parts tipped the balance. Most Japanse cities were of ancient design, thus the buildings were mostly wooden and closely spaced. Incidiary bombs created an inferno the burned out the entire industrial centers of city after city. Some raids did even more damage than the atomic bombs. By the summer, when the atomic bombs were being considered for use, the US was evaluating the heavy resistance of Okinawa. Casualty projections for an invasion of Japan were around 1,000,000 Allied dead (undoubtedly more Japanese). Conditions in Japan were dire. Because of the naval blockade, food shortages were rampant. Over 200,000 civilians were dying every month from starvation, exposure and disease. Yet t

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Herald12345 8/30/2009 1:39:38 PM

Some interesting facts Herald. Thanks.

I want to emphasize again that the Japanese infantry assault tactics were WW I infantry assault tactics. The inclusion of a bayonet on

portable machine guns made sense to them as they saw the human wave assault into the enemy trench as requiring every man they sent to have some means to fight of and when he was out of ammunition.

Hyperwar:

3) M-1 was semi-automatic:

6.5 mm rifle.

4) Okinawa was far far too late to learn. Nearly all defensive perimeter was already bypassed or destroyed.

Data.

Hyperwar

Long before Okinawa.

32nd Infantry.

5) Success in Iwo i would attribute mostly to Kuribayashi. Most of the Japanese commanders would have had ordered Banzai and thats it

Lone Sentry.

That was BURMA.

With the British 14th Army destroyed?

Hyperwar: Singapore similar situation.

"Victor's justice claim refuted. Lieutenant Calley example and those same Okinawa rapes. WE prosecuted our own."

what was the sentence for Lt. Calley? 3.5 years of house arrest?with 22 confirmed killings? and 300 unconfirmed. Oh boy....

He was convicted. And what did Speer get who was far worse? Proportion. What about that Lockerby bastard? Proportion. He was PUNISHED. You would not get that from the Russians or the Chinese.

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hawaiiboy tonnage 5/13/2012 10:32:47 PM

I have taken many college level courses and read hundreds of books on ww2 during my 54 years, I have fired most rifles and pistols of this era and a couple of the machine guns used and grew on the knees of veterans of that war and listened to their stories from as long as I remember here are my thoughts:

1) the arisaka is a good rifle and accurate but it is bolt action, the japanese had effective crew served machine guns in large numbers and they both fired a round very much like the 30.06. I own a springfield 1906 rifle and I own a lee enfield .303 SM mark 3 carbine. all bolt action rifles of long range and good accuracy and both used by the allies in ww1 in all theaters. The japanese were using a ww1 era design in ww2. Bolt action rifles can throw a lot of lead down field but cannot compare to that of the M-1 grand with is semi auto and can be emptied accurately and reloaded about three time as fast a bolt action arisaka, lee enfield or 1906 springfield, that is a huge difference if you are the one being shot at. The average marine or army rifle unit had a combination of thompson .45 submachine gun every 8 0r 10 men by my count, they had machine gun units firing one of the best sturdiest .30 caliber (same as 30.06) round in huge continous belt fed volumes and there were a higher per soldier number of these machine guns on the allied side than the japanese had of there less effective, more easily jammed strip fed machine guns. So the number I saw in a paper was that the marines and army in the pacific had 7 times the throw weight of round on average, this was from a peer reviewed paper by a history teacher. But that given, it pales in comparison to the next fact about how the japanese and allies were supplied

2) Japanese soldiers throughout the war were supplied with 1400 pounds of material per man on average. This is the amount of all food, ammo, fuel etc, everything. The American marine or soldier by the end of the war was provided with over 80,000 pounds of material per person. The allies could put more rounds downfield but they also could keep their fingers on the trigger a hell of a lot longer

3) something not known by most people is that we had the germans by the same advantage initially, even before an american fired one shot at a german, they has 8mm mauser bolt action rifles but has alot of schmeisser submachine gun also. The germans being german saw this coming and increased the number of crew served machine gun per soldier and brought three different version of a super dependable machine gun and even out the throweight issue right from the start and actually there were times when american were out matched bullet by bullet by geram weapons. Patton said ww2 was won by the m-1 garand and the c-46 cargo plane. our tanks sucked but that is another story

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