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Subject: Optimal set-up for M16-AR15
towgunner1960    6/2/2004 8:13:27 PM
I think the M16a2 should have been set-up differently than it was. One of the main selling points of the M16 was that it was extremely light weight as compared to M14. When the a2 was adopted, they added a different sighting sytem (more complex), heavier barrel (added weight), longer buttstock (harder for smaller statured troops to get a good cheek weld) and that stupid ass three round burst. The good things that were added were; round interchangeable handguards, improved pistol grip, case deflecter and improved flash suppresser. The a2 was not really a improvement over the a1, excepting grips, handguards, deflecter and flash suppresser. You added a pound and a half of weight. No one but the most advanced marksmen could take advantage of the more complex a2 sight and stiffer barrel. The designated marksman would probably have a scope anyhow. You also have in the A2 and 62g bullet, a rifle that doesn't kill as well unless the opponent is wearing body armor. They should have just kept the A1, added the guards, grip, deflecter and suppresser and kept the 55g bullet. It was lighter, handier and more than adequate to handle the job of hitting up to 300m, (with improved set-up). The A4 should have been set up similarly. Leave the damn barrel length alone. We are crazy to lose the extra velocity for the sake of convenience.....
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PuckaMan    RE: Optimal set-up for M16-AR15   6/3/2004 2:18:47 AM
With the 3 round burst, it was designed to prevent troops going rock and rolling too much, and burning through thier ammo. The 3 round burst means they can still put down a lot of fire without the temptations to hold the trigger. That's what I've read from a lot of places. It comes down to personal preference, like the Marines in Nam - some love the 16 and other stuck to thier 14. Can't give an informed opinion, never shot either of them. But's as I said, that's what I've read. Pucka
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doggtag    RE: Optimal set-up for M16-AR15   6/3/2004 2:59:21 AM
the biggest problems facing the M-16/M4 series is that everytime they make a new model, they chop the barrel down a bit more. With the resulting loss of velocity, neither the 55- or 62- grain bullet are performing as they were originally intended to at the higher velocities. Perhaps that is one reason why there is considerable interest in the 6.8mm round... (because the military hasn't had their hands on it enough to screw it all up yet!).
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Horsesoldier    RE: Optimal set-up for M16-AR15   6/6/2004 10:32:28 AM
I don't know. The sight is not especially complex, and the windage adjustments are easier to make than my recollection of an M16A1. The heavier barrel makes the weapon more accurate inside 300 meters, as well as allowing greater overall range. Compared to the M16A1 I fired once at the range (admittedly an old weapon, I believe) the M16A2 is very much an improvement. Now, I'm not so sure about the burst setting, but that was post Vietnam stuff where someone decided that the troops could not be trusted to control their own fire . . .
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Horsesoldier    RE: Optimal set-up for M16-AR15   6/6/2004 10:35:59 AM
>>The 3 round burst means they can still put down a lot of fire without the temptations to hold the trigger.<< Yeah, but there are precious few situations where you should ever be firing an M16 (or any other AR) on anything but semi, anyway. You can quick fire a semi-automatic M16A2 as rapidly as you can burn through a mag on burst, and as accurately (or inaccurately). The only times I'd see auto being appropriate for an AR would be things like break contact drills, where you're trying to suppress and make noise as much as hit the enemy, and close range ambushed where you just want to pour rounds onto a target, again to suppress the enemy (and keep him in your kill zone) as well as kill him.
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Horsesoldier    RE: Optimal set-up for M16-AR15   6/6/2004 10:39:47 AM
>>the biggest problems facing the M-16/M4 series is that everytime they make a new model, they chop the barrel down a bit more.<< M16A1 to A2 kept the same barrel length, likewise the M16A4. M4 dropped from 20" to 14.5", M4A1 kept the same length. I've heard the SEALs want something as short as 12" or even 10" . . . but that weapon would, understandably, only be suitable for CQB (though I admit the 11.5" barrel versions are quite cool looking . . .). Now XM8 with the 12" barrel . . . that seems like a bad idea to me. Perhaps they are basing that on the newer 77 grain+ 5.56mm rounds, as well as the possibility of 6.8mm, but I'm not entirely certain . . .
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PuckaMan    RE: Optimal set-up for M16-AR15 - Horsesoldier   6/6/2004 8:22:11 PM
Good point about the burst setting. As I've said, that's just the reason I've read in several sources. Shorter Range Rifles for more compact liughter weapons...... it looks to me to be case of forces willing to accept trade offs..... It would also depend on the outlook - individual or squad/formation weapons, which would include SAWs, GPMGs, so maybe lightness with volume of fire might be the go. Combat Environment is a big factor, such as the AR15 being in Nam lighter and mor moblie than the M14, good for short range stuff, but a range comparitivly next to useless, whereas as 7.62 from an M14 is effective out to about 800m..... Trade offs..... It's all anout trade offs.... Pucka
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Horsesoldier    RE: Optimal set-up for M16-AR15 - Horsesoldier   6/7/2004 1:26:28 PM
>>Trade offs..... It's all anout trade offs....<< Definite agreement. Any cartridge/weapon combination will come up short in some scenario, etc.
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eon    RE: Optimal set-up for M16-AR15    6/7/2004 2:46:35 PM
EArly on with the A2 (which started as a USMC project, I gather), somebody at Army Ordnance wanted to give it a "pull-through" trigger, ala' the then-new Steyr AUG; single, burst, or full-auto depending on which "step" you pulled it back to. Part of me thinks this might be agod idea, but the rest of me wonders what hapens if the shooter is wearing gloves/is fatigued/it's beastly cold and their fingers are near-frozen etc.? (Anyone with first-hand experience with the AUG want to comment?).
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Horsesoldier    AUG Trigger   6/8/2004 10:10:43 AM
Seems like a feature that would reward skilled shooters (which you'd want your combat arms types to be), but something that would leave most rear-echelon types and inexperienced troops spraying the countryside on full auto.
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