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Subject: What organic support assets does an infantry battalion need?
Yimmy    11/27/2007 3:10:47 PM
I'm sure people have figured by now that I like debating about structure of the infantry, and I was wondering what maneuver support assets you thought were needed? Just something which occured to me after I think Albany mentioned American support companies being as many as 300 odd strong. I believe British infantry battalions aim for an HQ company, three rifle companies (each with three platoons (of three sections plus a maneuver support section) and an HQ section) and a maneuver support company. In the HQ and maneuver support companies, what support assets should be organic to the battalion, and in which of the two companies? Javelin anti-tank platoon? (6 launchers?) 81mm mortar platoon? (6 tubes?) Sustained Fire GPMG platoon? (9 guns?) Starstreak HVM anti-air platoon? (9 single or 3 tripple launchers?) Reconnaissance platoon? Assault pioneer / engineer platoon? Sniper platoon? Signals platoon? Support medic field hospital platoon? Support drivers platoon? Support electrical & mecahnical engineer platoon? Support field kitchen platoon? Support carrier pigeon platoon? You could make a battalion of support platoons alone.
 
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JFKY       11/27/2007 3:24:24 PM
What your battalion or your company or your platoon needs really depends on:
1) What your unit is "supposed" to be doing; and
2) The time and space constraints you place on your battlefield.
 
A battalion designed to be an offensive machine on a battlefield 15Km (wide) X 30 km (deep) is going to look a lot different from one designed to hold a set of trenches in an area 1 Km X Km.
What do you want you unit to do?  And for how long? How much space do you allot it to accomplish its task, whatever that may be?
 
A heavy combat unit designed around mechanized attack (Combined Arms Battalion) or heavy screening unit (Armoured Cavalry Regiment/Squadron) designed around mechanized combat probably needs 120mm mortars or 155mm howitzers, organic.  An Airbonre or Air Assault Infantry unit probably is going to need much lighter weapons.
 
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Yimmy       11/27/2007 3:57:45 PM
I'm talking infantry JFKY.  You don't get combined arms battalions, however I should have specified light role infantry, as opposed to armoured or mechanised.
 
"Battalions" are the standardised deployable assets from the "regimental" formation remember.  What the mission is, and how you want to form your forces, is a matter for the "Battle Group", which may well be based upon an infantry battalion with elements of other arms attached.
 
What I was pondering, is what support assets should be provided by the battalion, as opposed to be sourced from elsewhere. 
 
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JFKY       11/27/2007 4:22:43 PM
Granted, BUT what your unit needs still depends on what you want it to do and how big a space it has to do it in....
 
Your "unit" could require an artillery battery and an engineer platoon, two in fact, if it is a Marine Infantry unit deployed far from home on a ship....
Will there be a Brigade/Division/Corps available to provide support?  Again how big is your battle space, a battle space 2KM X 2Km probably needs a few Maxim machine guns and a few Stokes-Brandt mortars.  A larger battle space means the unit commander needs more sensors, more communications, a bigger staff, and heavier firepower.  Which in turn necessitates a larger logistics tail.
 
What anything "needs" depends on what you're asking of the thing...what does your car need?  What are you using it for?  how much money are you willing to spend on it?  It's almost impossible to ask what support a unit needs without asking what that unit will be asked to do and for how long and where and in what sized area.
 
As a final example look at the various reorganizations the US Marine Division went thru in the Second World War...each reorganization was based on the latest combat with the Japanese.  The Marine Corps became optimized for OFFENSIVE, COMBINED-ARMS, AMPHIBIOUS operations, against a dug-in opponent, they increasingly used demolitions, flame weapons, and bazookas. 
 
Bottom-line: Form follows function.  The form of your battalion is defined by its function and the combat ecology it occupies.
 
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murabit821       11/27/2007 4:52:32 PM
it depend on customs of each army
for example russian models give to each level commander its own fire support , service support and other supports
also every level is part of next higher level , for example french battalions/regiments are more indenpend  with organic logistic ,in us army logistic assets for battalion are centered in brigade level.(support company for battalion is par of brigade support battalion not part of infantry battalion ),
minimal organic assets what you need in infantry battalion level which is part of higher unit
(infantry battalion with 3 inf coy + Heavy coy)
organic basic signal assets for HQ , with ability connect with higher level (Brigade) and with subordinate units within area of battalion operation
medical unit ROLE 1
all others  assets can be attached
 





 

 
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Dimitri       11/27/2007 5:11:53 PM

Inf Bn (or Regiment, I would like to give them all their historical identities back, but heyho!):
 
Headquarters Company
Regimental/Bn HQ & Signals Platoon
Medical Platoon
Assault Pioneer Platoon
Reconnaissance Platoon (inc. sniper section)
Technical (i.e. REME), Logistics, and Admin & Specialist Detachments
Forward Observation Party from the Royal Artillery
Tactical Air Control Party from the RAF
 
Rifle Companies x3, each one composing:
Coy HQ Section (inc. a few medics, stretcher bearers and immediate resupply logs)
Rifle Platoons x3  - OR SHOULD IT BE FOUR?
Maneuver Support Platoon (Pl HQ inc heavy weapons ammo resupply, sniper and Starstreak crew, a GPMG(SF) section of 3 guns, a 60mm mortar section of 3 tubes, and a Javelin section of 3 ATGMs)
 
In the Rifle Platoons:
Platoon HQ Section (inc medic, a Javelin team, a 51mm mortar team, and crew for Warrior/WMIKs)
3x Rifle Sections (leader, deputy, radio op, team medic, LSW sharpshooter, UGL grenadier, 2x Minimi gunners, + Warrior gunner, Warrior driver, GPMG gunner, assistant gunner (when Armoured) or rerolable to WMIK driver x2 and WMIK gunner x2 when Light - Vehicles are kept within the sections not requested from company)
 
In the Manoeuvre Support Platoon:
Platoon HQ Section (inc heavy weapons immediate ammo resupply stocked in vehicles, sniper pair, Stinger crew, medic and crew for vehicle)
GPMG(SF) Section (3 guns for dismounted use)
60mm Mortar Section (3 tubes for dismounted use)
Javelin Section (3 ATGMs for dismounted use)
 
The Regt/Bn should have a Fire Support Company but I haven't figured it out yet, but I am imagining something along the lines of:
Coy HQ (with a big old stock of ammo in a few vehicles to immediately resupply the below toys) 
Sustained Fire Platoon (Pl HQ and 3 sections with .50 cals, can be used dismounted or from vehicles)
Anti Tank Platoon (Pl HQ and 3 sections with something bigger than Javelin (Brimstone?), can be used dismounted or from vehicles tank-destroyer styley)
Indirect Fire Platoon (Pl HQ and 3 sections with 81mms, again dismounted or from vehicles)
Anti Aircraft Platoon (Pl HQ and 3 sections with a vehicle thats like an M163/30mm guided chaingun/rotary-cannon, with the addition of Starstreak missiles on the side of the vehicle like US Bradley has TOW bolted on - not sure if you should also go for some MANPAD fun (like Starstreak shoulder launched or multiple-launcher-fired) too, but meh)
 
When on ops, I'd like to see this regt/bn turned into a Battlegroup by adding:
1x Sabre Company from the Brigade's Cavalry Regiment 
1x Battery Company from the Brigade's Artillery Regiment
1x Sapper Company from the Brigade's Engineer Regiment
Yes I know the terminology is wrong, gun battery, armoured squadron etc, but I think we should be looking for commonality so as to avoid confusion: squadrons are for the Air Force!
 
Although of course you'll add what you need to add due to the mission; but still, thats a nice baseline template I feel.
 
If each of these companies attached have 4 platoons which 'do the business', i.e. tankie/gun/combat engineers stuff as opposed to support, this allows 1 platoon to support every rifle company in the battlegroup, and one left over for battlegroup-wide tasks. Similarly if each cav/arty/engr regt up at brigade has 4 sabre/battery/sapper companies that allows one to be assigned to each battlegroup, and 1 left behind for brigade-wide tasks and to be used as a reserve. Not sure what sort of support troops these units need, but there can be an extra support platoon in the sabre/battery/sapper company and a support company in the cav/arty/engr regiment for this purpose.
 
What do you think?
 
 
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Yimmy       11/27/2007 5:18:24 PM
Sorry, I think we are talking around each other in circles.  I know what you mean, as far as what a requirement may throw up, and what we decide we need to deploy to fill that requirement, however that isn't how the order of battle works.
 
The UK for instance, now has 42(?) infantry battalions in the order of battle.  Some of these are light role, some are mechanised and some are armoured.  What I was curious as to, was the standard light role infantry battalions order of battle where organic support is concerned.  I am not sure how much standardisation really exists, as for instance I don't think every TA battalion has the same assets, but I was wondering what others thought was needed.
 
I am not talking about tailoring a combat unit to a set scenario here.
 
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Yimmy       11/27/2007 5:20:56 PM
My last reply was aimed at JFKY btw
 
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Sabre       11/27/2007 5:21:08 PM
Many armies seem to like the idea of grouping the support platoons that can fight (recon, mortars, anti-tank, engineers) in one support company, and the logistics (transport, medical, signals, and mechanics) in another.  This seems to make sense to most people.
 
Another way to split up the supporting platoons would be "forward" and "rear", so the mortars (or artillery) and most logistics elements (such as the aid station, mechanics) in the "rear", and the recon, engineers, and anti-tank, as well as any medics or signalers/RTO's habitually attached to line companies and platoons, in the "forward" company.  Thus you have one company commander who essentially is in charge of all elements in the rear, and another who will (should) be forward constantly.
 
It is perhaps a more interesting question for mechanized units, where you may have enough mechanics to form a small maintenance company, and enough trucks for a transpo company (a cav squadron has about three dozen heavy trucks, and a slightly higher number of mediums), leaving the signals, medical, etc in an smaller HHC.
 
Another interesting twist I have heard of, is many battalions get a howitzer battery attached, and then attach their mortars to the battery, so that the battery commander controls both, facilitating the passing of meteorological data, ensure that when one element is moving, the other is set and in range to support the infantry, etc.
 
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murabit821       11/27/2007 5:23:56 PM
for support calculate soldiers (for water and food supplies) ,
also calculate all vehicles i think two basic types be enough (like HMMWV and some 6x6 FMTV  ),
or UAZ-469 and URAL-4320  :) for POL ,


 
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Sabre       11/27/2007 5:25:23 PM


If each of these companies attached have 4 platoons which 'do the business', i.e. tankie/gun/combat engineers stuff as opposed to support, this allows 1 platoon to support every rifle company in the battlegroup, and one left over for battlegroup-wide tasks. Similarly if each cav/arty/engr regt up at brigade has 4 sabre/battery/sapper companies that allows one to be assigned to each battlegroup, and 1 left behind for brigade-wide tasks and to be used as a reserve. Not sure what sort of support troops these units need, but there can be an extra support platoon in the sabre/battery/sapper company and a support company in the cav/arty/engr regiment for this purpose.

 

What do you think?

Actually, that is a fantastic idea.  Any time I have seen, say, a tank company, with three platoons, supporting a brigade with 3 light infantry battalions, there has always been "Something else" for one of those tank platoons to do, leaving one (or more) light infantry battalions short their support.

 
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