Articles on the Joint Training btw the USMC & RM

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Subject: Articles on the Joint Training btw the USMC & RM
SCCOMarine 10/9/2007 5:20:02 PM

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SCCOMarine 10/9/2007 5:21:00 PM

As I mentioned B4 US Marine Infantry Units train head up w/the RM and many other Commando Units. We do a lot of joint training, Force on Force, and are heavily involved in each other exchange programs, as well as heavily involved in joint development of tactics, techniques and procedures-TTPs.

This is b/c the foundation of Marine Infantry training is, Light Infantry Tactics, or what the Marine Corps calls Small Unit Tactics. Light Infantry/Small Unit Tactics has always been the Hallmark of Marine Infantry. Individual Marines trained to operate not by orders but the Commanders intent.

Every other role or mission the Marine Corps takes on is just an add on to those tactics, once you master the fudementals of LI Tactics those skills parlay into everything else; in the USMC they call it the ‘training vehicle’ to everything else.

The same way a lot of you admire the high Physical Standards maintained by these units, they admire the Tactical Proficiency of Marine Units.

I think the problem a lot of you don’t know of the USMC’s training outside of the Conven., Crisis Resp. and Forced Entry Missions they train for and take on.

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SCCOMarine 10/9/2007 5:25:32 PM

This is an article the RM’s High Speed Anti-Terror Commando Unit. It used to be called the Commachio Group, the Colour Sgt that was attached to SCCO for 2yrs when I was there, Colour Sgt Thomlinson, was formerly a member of CGRM.

2nd FAST trains with British Royal Marines.

NAVAL WEAPONS STATION YORKTOWN, Va. (Aug. 3, 2004) -- The Fleet Protection Group British Royal Marines and the 2nd Fleet Anti-Terrorism Security Team, Marine Corps Security Force Battalion, 4th Marine Expeditionary Brigade (Anti-Terrorism) conducting training here as part of the ongoing joint exercise Tartan Eagle, a multi-location exercise with approximately three weeks in the U.S. and three weeks in the United Kingdom.

During the three-week evolution, the Marines go through various training phases including enhanced marksmanship training, endurance training and helicopter operations.

“This training is much different from what we are taught back home,” said Private Tom J. Wheelton, a rifleman in the Royal Marines. “The instructors really helped us with quick reaction and precision shooting skills. It’s pretty amazing how thorough they (USMC) are with their marksmanship.”

Sergeant Liborio Rivera, non-commissioned officer for the automated range, noticed how quickly the Brits learned the pistol skills.

“They said this was different shooting than what they were used to,” said Rivera, a Bronx, N.Y., native. “The pop-up targets really got them pumped to shoot because it was different from a regular pistol range.”

Besides marksmanship, the British and U.S. Marines conducted a physical training evolution with pistol shooting, water jug carry, casualty carry, log physical training, pugil-stick fighting, 240-golf assembly and convoy security. The teams had to run to each of the stations, which were two to three miles apart.

Private First Class Joshua K. Garret, sentry for 5th platoon, was one of the pugil-stick warriors to face off with the Brits.

“They get really loud and aggressive,” said Garret, a Galax, Va. native. “They have great intensity, but we still beat them during the face-off though.”

“It’s always a great opportunity to train with the USMC,” said Col. Ian P. Huntley, commanding officer, fleet protection group, BRM. “We’ve been doing this training for six years now and we learn something new every time.”

Fast roping and special patrol insertion/extraction (SPIE) rigging seemed to be one of the most exciting parts of training for the Brits.

“It’s such a rush sliding out of a helicopter and also very fun to just hang off a rope hundreds of feet in the air,” said 2nd Lieutenant Tristan Pengelly, troop commander for the British. “Both ourselves and the U.S. Marines have been going through the helicopter operations rather quickly. If we actually had to conduct a real-life operation right now, they’d be more than capable to pull it off successfully.”

Even with the long hours of training, the Marines kept their energy going to share and learn from their fellow AT warriors.

“It’s just exciting for our lads to go through training that they’re not used to,” added Huntley, a Faslane, Scotland, native. “The U.S. Marines have that ooh-rah, kill mentality and our lads feed off that and really exceed our expectations.”

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SCCOMarine 10/9/2007 5:36:24 PM

Keep in mind this isn't a who's better. Like I said earlier, I've trained w/ the RM on 2 different occassion, and they are physical beasts.

But for those who don't think that we train to the same level tactically for the same missions are wrong!

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SCCOMarine 10/9/2007 6:06:46 PM

This is an Article about the RM sending their DIs over here to incorporate some our training into theirs. We’ve also sent DI’s incorporate more Commando Style Phys Fitness into our Boot Camp.

DI from across the pond visits RTR, compares Corps' training, traditions

MARINE CORPS RECRUIT DEPOT SAN DIEGO, Calif. (June 17, 2005) -- A British Royal Marine is on the depot to observe recruit training and get a taste of America's Corps.

Sgt. Christopher Morgan, a Royal Marine drill instructor, came to the depot on his own accord. His command granted the request.

"I wanted to come here and see the similarities and differences in our training," said Morgan. "I've seen quite a few interesting things."

Morgan, a 12-year veteran, said the aspect of training that intrigued him the most is the intensity between the drill instructors and recruits.

"When they pick up, the drill instructors go straight into it," remarked Morgan, 34. "Right off the bus, they are screaming and yelling. We do it completely differently."

By differently, Morgan means that Royal Marine drill instructors only yell at the recruits when they make mistakes vice yelling all the time like the American drill instructors.

"We aren't as intense, but our training is more physically demanding," said Morgan.

I think I might have said that earlier, like since last year when we had this conversation.

Training for the Royal Marines' is 32 weeks long. During that time, the drill instructors only live with the recruits for the first two weeks. After that, they go home at night and leave the recruits to themselves. In Britain, the drill instructors only teach drill. Weapons instructors and physical training instructors take care of the rest, according to Morgan.

"I think it's interesting that we are so intense, and the Royal Marines aren't, but we still achieve the same results," said Staff Sgt. Cory Gonya, Recruit Training Regiment scheduling chief, and Morgan's guide here. "I think if we added (School of Infantry) and the following school to recruit training, (American drill instructors) couldn't be as intense as we are now."

Keep in mind, in the USMC, the Intensity level increases even higher for Infantrymen after B.C. when they hit SOI. This is when they separate fr/ the Non-Infantrymen, which is another 9wks of training. The Intensity goes up another notch when they get to their first Line Unit in the Fleet.

Next week, Morgan will head north to Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton, Calif., to see recruits execute field training and the Crucible. The Royal Marines have a culminating event too, but it's longer. They call it Commando Course, and it's a week long.

The Commando Course includes a 10-mile endurance course. It starts with a four-mile hike to a starting point. The hike is followed by a six-mile run in 32 pounds of gear. The course is enhanced with obstacles, and recruits have 78 minutes to

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SCCOMarine 10/9/2007 6:14:14 PM

For those Who Didn't read what I wrote about the differences in our training, I'll send it again. Its a subtle difference in Philosophy leaves the same end result.

Hard Marine Units Capable of Conducting whatever Mission Assigned.

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ambush 10/9/2007 6:20:58 PM

We did some joint training withe RM in the 80s in Norway. They were much better at cold weather stuff even though we had been through pickle medows before.

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ArtyEngineer SCCO 10/9/2007 6:27:44 PM

Good articles,

Thnx for taking the time to post and answer my querie regarding the differences. Id still love to know the "Why" though!!! At the end of teh day though thats really not important, the end result is whats important.

Another question for you, the RM's are considered the UK's cold weather specialists by nature of a lot of Marines doing the Arctic and Mountain Warefare or Mountain Leaders course I believe its called and which is 8 month long!!!!. Norway and Northern Scotland being being the main training areas.

Does the USMC have a similar role within the US military or is cold weather ops something which they are no more specialised in than the rest of the larger US Military. Your cold weather specialists simply being those army/marine units which are geographically located in cold areas of the US.

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SCCOMarine 10/9/2007 6:31:15 PM

Fr/ an earlier Post to Arty:

First to put us on the same page the RM are only more forgiving on the Mental stresses, training, and abuse in the development of their Marines. But to be Clear they are more extreme in the Physical training toward the development of their Marines, although they don’t resort to the Phys abuse that you’ll find in the USMC.

The reason for that is like I said, is the Philosophies of how the 2 MC’s develop a solid Marine. What that means is the Philosophy of both MC’s is that it takes Extremely Intense training to make a good Marine. The difference is in where they put the ‘Emphasis’ of the Intensity of their training.

One has chosen to Emphasize extreme Phys Standards to cut the fat, the other Emphasizes Tactical Knowledge standards along w/ Extreme Mental stresses & abuses.

The USMC has chosen to use Tact Knowl’, Extreme Displ’, and Responsibility as its ‘Measuring Stick’. Its not that Phys Fitness isn’t stressed but the Philosophy is that if our JM’s can perform at a high level of Tact Know, Discp, & Show Resp. under the amount of Mental stress that we put them thru they can gradually be brought to higher PT levels.

The RM Philosophy is a 180. They use extreme Phys Standards as their Measuring Stick, and its not that Mental Discipline or Tactical Knowledge isn’t stressed but their Philosophy is if their JM’s can Perform at Extremely high Physical Levels than the Ment Disc and Tact Knowl’ can be gradually taught over time. An exact Vice Versa of ours as far as where to Emphasize the intensity of training.

This was kind of long but I hope it clears things up for you.

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SCCOMarine 10/9/2007 6:39:38 PM

As far as Light Infantry missions capability, this is fr/ an earlier post to DirtyKraut:

The USMC trains for all the "large scale" missions that you know about. But the USMC Infantry Units, also, train for the same missions as the RM & many other Inf Commando Units. They train IN and FOR these missions together.

The USMC takes on so many Conventional and Forced Entry missions, its capability as a LI Force gets over look.

Look at offensive that the Marines fr/ the 22^nd MEU(SOC) were assigned in Afgh in Uruzgan in’04. The MEU spread out in small Plt to Comp size Patrol bases thru-out Uruzgan, using the very same tactics used by many of the Inf Commando over there (why? b/c they trained in these tactics together).

At the end of the op in 6mths CJTF-76 Commander, SEAL RADM Eric T. Olson, stated the Op was:

· "The most successful offensive military since Operation ENDURING FREEDOM began," and

· "This has been the most successful military operation since I've been here and no unit could've done any better," said Olson, who took the reins as the commanding general of Combined Joint Task Force 76 (CJTF-76) in mid-April. "Never has a force been so flexible and so successful."

These are Excerpts from “22nd MEU (SOC) begins retrograde from Afghanistan” and “ Quote Reply

ambush 10/9/2007 6:41:28 PM

I can only speak to when I was in year sago.. There were no Mairne units that pseicialized in cold weather ops and none were geographically located in cold areas except for those at the Marine Barracks at Adak.

We did rotate through the Mountain Warfare school at Bridgeport which included cold weather stuff but it was no where near as extensive as the RM's course. But then again you have to remember that the USMC is dealing with a lot more personnel. Some Artic/Mountain warfare equipment was kept at Division/FSSG level for issue as needed and we had stuff stockpiled in Norway when we had responsblity for NATO's Northern flank.

If I recall correctly the cadre from the RM's Arctic and Mountain Warefare or Mountain Leaders course were formed in to a combat unit an sent into action during the Falklands war.

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