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Subject: Feasible Organization
Roman    3/25/2007 9:34:36 AM
Would it be feasible to combine a squad and a team into a single squad-team of six men arranged as follows: 1 x SAW/LMG gunner 1 x SAW/LMG assistant gunner 1 x Marksman 1 x Assault rifleman with an attached grenade launcher 1 x Automatic rifle gunner 1 x Team/Squad Leader with an assault rifle Note 1: I think SAW uses the same ammunition as assault rifles, while LMG may use higher caliber ammunition and having 2 calibers at the squad/team level, could perhaps pose logistical problems. As such, the SAW may be the better choice. Note 2: Apparently there has been a revival of usage of dual use grenades that can be fired from the front of normal assault rifles and are also throwable. As such, it seems to me that dedicated grenadiers might no longer be necessary and the soldiers in question could therefore perhaps be given other weapons, such as shotgun attachments (or PDWs or something else) for Close Quaters Combat or in the future perhaps the 20mm Objective Individual Weapons that the U.S. Army has been developing. OK, back to the organization: Platoon would be made up of 3 of the above-described squad-teams, plus an additional 'recoilless rifle/rocket' team of 6 men with 3 LAW/RPG class weapons. Additionally, it would have an HQ squad-team of 1 CO, 1 XO, 1 Platoon Sgt, 2 medics and 2 snipers/scouts. This would give the platoon a total of 31 men. A company would then consist of 3 such platoons, one heavy platoon and a HQ element. The heavy platoon would have: 37 men 1 x HQ with 1 CO, 1 XO, 1 Platoon Sgt, 2 medics and 2 snipers/scouts. 1 x squad-team of 3 A/T crews of 3 men each plus squad leader 1 x squad-team of 3 Machine Gun (12.7mm) crews of 3 men each plus squad leader 1 x squad-team of 3 Mortar (60mm/61mm) crews of 3 men each plus squad leader Note 3: It may be necessary to add 1, 2 or even 3 RTOs/Runners/Signallers to each platoon, but with the current miniaturization and digitalization of radios, I am not completely certain. The company HQ element would consist of 22 men: 1 x CO 1 x XO 1 x Company Sgt 3 x RTO/Runner/Signaller 1 x Arms Technician 1 x Quartermaster 1 x Medical squad-team of 8 men (1 x doctor, 1 x medic and three evacuation crews of 2 medics each) 1 x Sniper/Scout squad-team of 6 men (3 sniper/scout pairs) The company would therefore have a grand total of 152 men. I am not going to take this to battalion level at this stage, as I still don't understand how staffs, logistics and various support units are organized and these tend to be present at battalion level. In any case, do you consider the organization outlined above to be feasible, or does it suffer from some irrepairable flaws? In particular, is the concept of team-squads, where teams and squads are combined into one echelon, viable?
 
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Roman       3/25/2007 10:04:39 AM
I just realized that 3 medical evacuation crews might be excessive, while the actual treatment part of the medical squad team is deficient, so I would perhaps only leave one evacuation crew, shift another one to treatment duty and eliminate the third one completely. The medical squad-team would then end up with only 6 men: 1 x doctor, 3 x medic and 1 x evacuation crew of 2 medics.
 
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flamingknives       3/25/2007 11:38:59 AM
I don't see the advantage of combining squads and teams. With two units you can conduct fire and manouevre.
 
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Roman       3/25/2007 11:49:51 AM
Well, the thinking behind it was that teams/squads would be based around a heavier weapon (SAW/LMG). Suppress and maneuver would be possible with the general situation of the SAW/LMG providing supporting fire and the rifle elements maneouvering with the automatic rifle being used in either role. Also, I was thinking that if you want to do fire and maneuover on a larger scale you can use several squad-teams for this purpose. Rather than combining them into a 12 man squad outright, this organization seems more flexible.
 
Again, I don't know how well it would work in pracitce.
 
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flamingknives       3/25/2007 11:53:21 AM
Sounds like the old concepts of rifle group and gun group.
 
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verong    use of   3/25/2007 12:57:55 PM
Hey there,
 
Look at it this way.
1.SAW as fire suppressor mounted on a armored humvee along with squad leader and driver/RTO
2. two two man buddy teams in  fire team for fire and manuever.
 
This would give the ability to dismount or fight from a armored humvee.
 
Sincerely,
 
Keith
 
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flamingknives       3/25/2007 1:25:12 PM
Would a humvee as a squad support element be sensible? Seems to me that it's too obvious and not mobile enough, so it is easily suppressed and blocked off from the team that it's supposed to be supporting.
 
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Roman       3/25/2007 3:10:10 PM
Sorry, I have never heard of rifle group and gun group concepts, so I am unable to make a comparison.
 
As to vehicles, I was thinking of this as light infantry or perhaps even airborne infantry, where you need a lean organization, but unless close to extraction points also many medical assets. The original thought was mostly light infantry, but also suited to guerrilla warfare in case the enemy occupies the country.
 
I am not saying that mounting it on vehicles would be impossible, but I am not certain that using humvees as direct support elements is the way to go. Even when armored, they still seem vulnerable compared to IFVs or APCs, yet lack the advantages of dismounted infantry of using natural terrain as barriers and cover to the same extent and mobility over very rough terrain (mountains, forests, etc.). I guess humvees could be used to provide transport to the combat zone (as could trucks, or other vehicles), but as to their utility in assault, I am not so certain.
 
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verong       3/25/2007 3:39:24 PM
Hey Roman,
 
I would look at assault force being possible in dismounted ops. the LMAIB or Lite mobile armored infantry brigade would be fully dismountable and is meant for convoy protection and small unit ops against light infantry. I would not include mortar either. the humvee provides mounted ops where casualties need to be removed plus if the enemy hits you and destroyes the vehicle with a mobility kill you are still dismountable that is a mayor advantage v the LMG m-240 series which is heavier but can not share ammo with the m-16/4 nor as easily dismountable another plus is you can carry supplies like water, ammo, and food for a longer mission if needed
 
Sincerely,
 
Keith
 
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Roman       3/26/2007 8:17:25 AM
Well, I do recall that mounted forces in soft-skin vehicles existed before in the U.S. (IIRC it was the 9th Infantry Division), but I believe they were all dismantled after the Cold War. Whether this was done, because they were not expected to be useful in the post-Cold War environment or as a purely money-saving measure or as a combination of the two, I do not know. That said, I can see that they may have some utility in convoy protection or security operations in the rear. Whether their mobility compensates for their vulnerability in front-line tasks, though, I simply do not know.
 
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verong    armored humvee   3/26/2007 1:49:51 PM
Hey Roman,
 
there are armored Humvee which can take almost anything a lite infantry unit can dish out only a direct hit on a crewman would result in a RPG kill or casualty.
 
Sincerely,
 
Keith
 
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