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Subject: The Change is Beginning Christianity vs Islam
RaptorZ    2/23/2006 3:28:18 PM
I have harped on this subject for several posts being called everything from basically an idiot to an outright racist. Moderate Muslims must speak out and take control before something worse happens. When the Vatican becomes more vocal for protection of Christianity and such, those who value Islam best pay attention. I am not Catholic but know, from history, if the church gets involved at these high levels things are not going to turn for the better unless some middle ground can be found. Believe it or not Christians can be just as fanatical as the radical muslims. Let's not go down that path. ----------------------------------------------- Vatican to Muslims: practice what you preach Email this Story Feb 23, 12:54 PM (ET) By Tom Heneghan, Religion Editor PARIS (Reuters) - After backing calls by Muslims for respect for their religion in the Mohammad cartoons row, the Vatican is now urging Islamic countries to reciprocate by showing more tolerance toward their Christian minorities. Roman Catholic leaders at first said Muslims were right to be outraged when Western newspapers reprinted Danish caricatures of the Prophet, including one with a bomb in his turban. Most Muslims consider any images of Mohammad to be blasphemous. After criticizing both the cartoons and the violent protests in Muslim countries that followed, the Vatican this week linked the issue to its long-standing concern that the rights of other faiths are limited, sometimes severely, in Muslim countries. Vatican prelates have been concerned by recent killings of two Catholic priests in Turkey and Nigeria. Turkish media linked the death there to the cartoons row. At least 146 Christians and Muslims have died in five days of religious riots in Nigeria. "If we tell our people they have no right to offend, we have to tell the others they have no right to destroy us," Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican's Secretary of State (prime minister), told journalists in Rome. "We must always stress our demand for reciprocity in political contacts with authorities in Islamic countries and, even more, in cultural contacts," Foreign Minister Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo told the daily Corriere della Sera. Reciprocity -- allowing Christian minorities the same rights as Muslims generally have in Western countries, such as building houses of worship or practicing religion freely -- is at the heart of Vatican diplomacy toward Muslim states. Vatican diplomats argue that limits on Christians in some Islamic countries are far harsher than restrictions in the West that Muslims decry, such as France's ban on headscarves in state schools. Saudi Arabia bans all public expression of any non-Muslim religion and sometimes arrests Christians even for worshipping privately. Pakistan allows churches to operate but its Islamic laws effectively deprive Christians of many rights. Both countries are often criticized at the United Nations Human Rights Commission for violating religious freedoms. "ENOUGH TURNING THE OTHER CHEEK" Pope Benedict signaled his concern on Monday when he told the new Moroccan ambassador to the Vatican that peace can only be assured by "respect for the religious convictions and practices of others, in a reciprocal way in all societies." He mentioned no countries by name. Morocco is tolerant of other religions, but like all Muslim countries frowns on conversion from Islam to another faith. Iraqi Christians say they were well treated under Saddam Hussein's secular policies, but believers have been killed, churches burned and women forced to wear Muslim garb since Islamic groups gained sway after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003. Christians make up only a tiny fraction of the population in most Muslim countries. War and political pressure in recent decades have forced many to emigrate from Middle Eastern communities dating back to just after the time of Jesus. As often happens at the Vatican, lower-level officials have been more outspoken than the Pope and his main aides. "Enough now with this turning the other cheek! It's our duty to protect ourselves," Monsignor Velasio De Paolis, secretary of the Vatican's supreme court, thundered in the daily La Stampa. Jesus told his followers to "turn the other cheek" when struck. "The West has had relations with the Arab countries for half a century, mostly for oil, and has not been able to get the slightest concession on human rights," he said. Bishop Rino Fisichella, head of one of the Roman universities that train young priests from around the world, told Corriere della Sera the Vatican should speak out more. "Let's drop this diplomatic silence," said the rector of the Pontifical Lateran University. "We should put pressure on international organizations to make the societies and states in majority Muslim countries face up to their responsibilities."
 
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trustedsourceofinfo    RE:Pars   3/2/2006 2:20:34 AM
Secularism in theory sounds very nice!Please let me see how Turks react when you'll have 15% Non Muslims in turkey... Tell me something...have there ever been incidents of burning down churches in Turkey?
 
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Pseudonym    Hunt the instigators   3/2/2006 3:40:42 AM
"If you're gonna throw fatwas around like a baseball then they can shove the Koran up the a$$...This kind of religious crap is not welcome in India...." Every Imam, Mullah, or Ayatollah, etc, who incites murder of innocent people should either be arrested and tried for conspiracy to commit murder, or simply witness a Hellfire from a CIA Predator exploding 24 inches away.
 
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trustedsourceofinfo    RE:Hunt the instigators   3/2/2006 4:12:35 AM
""Every Imam, Mullah, or Ayatollah, etc, who incites murder of innocent people should either be arrested and tried for conspiracy to commit murder, or simply witness a Hellfire from a CIA Predator exploding 24 inches away."" -->I was actually going to steer our debate in this direction! These Imams and Mullahs are the biggest perpetrators of terror.. These are the guys who read the Koran day in and night out.. They're closer to Islam than the other Moslems...so Mex,this answers ur question again...or it still doesnt...?!?!??!
 
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Azmodius    RE:Hunt the instigators   3/2/2006 9:30:50 AM
What i find amusing about debates like this are the people who like to claim islam is no different than other religions or no more bloody than other religions. Whens the last time the pope or pat robertson was passing out AK-47's? Seems to me the big difference is that the koran clearly directs its followers to live a certain way and to take action a certain way wheras the bible does not. hey Mex, i eagrly await you to respond and put your foot in your mouth yet again.
 
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mustavaris    Moderate Islam, I have encountered   3/2/2006 10:05:12 AM
Case study 1. Finnish Tatars, have lived here since 19the century - absolutely no problem with them. Case study 2. Bulgarian muslims, there are quite a many of them and they seem to behave rather well. Could continue... Last time I talked with muslisms was in January in Budapest, had a beer with a Bangladeshian and a Pakistani persons. Absolutely no problem with them, actually either of them started to talk about Rushdie´s Satanic Verses and we had a nice little conversation. Anyway: I completely agree that moderate muslims must raise their voice and act unless they want to walk the part to hell with the radicals. Period. Turkey as a whole is a good example, but even them have a long way to go.
 
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mustavaris    RE:Pars   3/2/2006 10:12:48 AM
"I really love this idea. We should export all Muslims living in the West to Turkey or to middle east." Sounds like a re-emergence of the Madagascar Plan. Hail! ** Rising my right arm to Caesarian salute **
 
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Azmodius    RE:Moderate Islam, I have encountered   3/2/2006 10:38:52 AM
"Case study 1. Finnish Tatars, have lived here since 19the century - absolutely no problem with them" Thats cool. Still doesnt change what the koran says and how muslims are to live and acto towards non-muslims. So the questions is what do these finnish tartars do thats different than the other 99%? Now im interested so will look it up somewhere. "Last time I talked with muslisms was in January in Budapest, had a beer with a Bangladeshian and a Pakistani persons" Are you sure they were muslim? Allah forbids muslims from consuming alcohol. This is what i wouldnt mind seeing more of. Professed mulsims who say they are muslim but slowly slipping into western ideas and culture. I dont think these 2 were muslims since they arent practicing islam they way the koran says to. its like the millions of "christians" in the US who claim to be christian but dont go to church, dont read the bible, dont behave like a christina should, etc.
 
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mustavaris    RE:Moderate Islam, I have encountered   3/2/2006 10:53:05 AM
"Are you sure they were muslim? Allah forbids muslims from consuming alcohol. This is what i wouldnt mind seeing more of. Professed mulsims who say they are muslim but slowly slipping into western ideas and culture. I dont think these 2 were muslims since they arent practicing islam they way the koran says to. its like the millions of "christians" in the US who claim to be christian but dont go to church, dont read the bible, dont behave like a christina should, etc." They were both muslims, from rather religious families. Both had university studies finished or soon finished and at the moment they lived in UK. Well, one can argue that they werent true muslims, but then we must accept that at least 99% of the so called Christians arent Christians. Nor Jews are true to their religion. Thats the way modernization goes. My ex-gf has told about wine drinking secular Muslims in France who show their moderate attitudes by adopting some habits that are felt to be truly French. On Finnish tatars: http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=26477
 
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mustavaris    RE:Moderate Islam, I have encountered   3/2/2006 10:54:39 AM
By the way, the woman whose name is Rahime Zyskowicz.. his husband is a Jew who is one of the most visible politicians in Finland. It pretty much tells everything.
 
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Azmodius    RE:Moderate Islam, I have encountered   3/2/2006 11:22:26 AM
My whole point when talking about islam is that IT is a non tolerant and oppressive religion. i dont believe there is a such thing as moderate islam either. a muslim either lives, worships, and behaves as the koran dictates or they are not muslim. its this distinction which makes it easy for me to say destroy the religion. You dont have to actually kill all the people to do so.
 
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