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densoflex RE: Bashing? 3/15/2004 10:59:44 AM

I understand well your objections, but from the beginning Spain's position was flawed with 80-90% of its public being against involvment in Iraq (and definitely against Bush) and a right wing government having decided the opposite. Call it irrationality or whatever, I'd prefer to call it schizophrenia. This situation is the same in Italy and (to a lesser extend) in the UK. Like it or not, Spain's public and Govt are today in line, and this line isn't a pro-war one. Just as you I was really shocked this morning upon reading the newly elected PM's declaration. But what is abnormal isn't so much the content of the declaration but much more the fact that without warning Spain might be pulling from its international commitments. This is what is worrying me. Let's hope only these statements were made in the heat of the moment...

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densoflex RE: On finding who stands to profit. 3/15/2004 11:21:44 AM

Celebrim? When did you ever see this Colombo like detective on French TV? Aren't you a little bit paranoid? It is however true that a book was published in the aftermath of 9/11 and called "The dreadful imposture" by Thierry Meyssan which was exposing a plot following which no plane actually crashed (sorry, it was so stupid that I don't remember further details). If you want to learn more about these guy just Google his name and you'll find his rubbish. Similar books were published in Germany and elsewhere. But what does this prove? Meyssan's book incoherences and mistakes have been repeately shown by the press, but if people love to read that Lady Di was killed by MI6, that JFK was murdered by Lindon B Johnson, or that George Bush was actually the pilot of one of the 9/11 liners before bailing out what can we do ? It demonstates nothing but the immense stupidity of the general public and the greed of the publishers...

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American Kafir Densoflex 3/15/2004 12:29:52 PM

>>Come on Friends! Don't loose your nerves! Spain isn't going to revert into a Caliphate as I read in some posts, neither will it appoint OBL as Minister of Foreign Affairs!<< It doesn't have to. All future decisions made by the Andalusian government will be taken under the consideration of how Islamic terrorists will react to it. Perhaps it's time to return Perejil Island to Morocco, and order Spanish troops in Iraq to begin attacking US convoys. Maybe an airstrike on London. To bring Andalusia back into the good graces of the mujihadeen, of course. You never know, Osama Bin Laden might not be happy with the kufr of Andalusia yet, and he's not the kind of guy you want mad at you. His friends might blow you up.

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Panther RE: On finding who stands to profit. 3/15/2004 12:42:04 PM

As much as i would like to believe that spain will remain an ally, i fear that will not be the case. Who really profits from the elections - Not Spain. What's more they have already set themseleves up for future punishment at the hands of terrorists at the slightest provocation. Not because of any U.S. action, but because the nation belongs to the western world in islamofascists eyes! Therefore, i agree with celebrim that they need not do anything more at the time being. To say the majority of the populace was brutalized & beaten after the bombing would be an understatement. It was a fact before the iraq war ever began. I'm sorry to say it was a war of phsycology they were'nt prepared for! The fear of taken on the terrorists with brute force, paralyzed the populace after the fact of the madrid bombing! Nevertheless, they have been targets along with the rest of us since the early 90's. Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to bash anybody or country. IMHO, they simply voted with their hearts on their sleeves in a time of war! What else can anyone expect from those who live in fear. (Special note: The same thing could happen to us later this year. Proving many of the spanish people aren't cowards. We have our swing voters too, that could put us in the same predicament that spain finds herself in now!)

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Roman RE: Roman 3/15/2004 1:17:09 PM

Well, it does appear I have spoken too soon. I have not realized that the withdrawal from Iraq would be so rapid. That certainly does not bode well. Let us hope it is not indicative of the way new Spanish government will deal with terrorism. BTW: One of the reasons the former right wing government lost the election was because it immediatelly tried to pin the blame on ETA for its own political gain. When it became apparent that Islamists carried out the attack, people felt that the Popular Party (the right wing one) lied and tried to cover up the facts for its own political gain. Had the party been forthright and not tried to quickly point fingers at ETA and exonerate the Islamists it would probably have won.

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Roman RE: On finding who stands to profit. 3/15/2004 1:20:29 PM

Speaking on Meyssan: link

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FJV Spain will have to learn the hard way. 3/15/2004 1:41:57 PM

A change of government and a withdrawal of forces from Iraq will be seen by terrorists as a sign of weakness. Just like the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon and the peace offers were seen by the terrorists as signs of weakness and succes of terror. This percieved weakness will increase the number of terror attacks against Spain. Which means Spain will have to learn the hard way about giving in to terror. It will be an (unfortunate) lesson for some to see a leftist governed country as a target of terror attacks.

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Elbandeedo RE:Spain will have to learn the hard way. 3/15/2004 1:54:48 PM

Ouch. agreed on most points - only a slight clarification here: The Government of Spain will have to learn the hard way, while the poor Spanish people have to pay in blood for the governments bad judgement. E.

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celebrim RE:Spain will have to learn the hard way. 3/15/2004 2:37:07 PM

"BTW: One of the reasons the former right wing government lost the election was because it immediatelly tried to pin the blame on ETA for its own political gain. When it became apparent that Islamists carried out the attack, people felt that the Popular Party (the right wing one) lied and tried to cover up the facts for its own political gain. Had the party been forthright and not tried to quickly point fingers at ETA and exonerate the Islamists it would probably have won." Please. There is nothing that the irrational left likes so much as a conspiracy theory. I no more believe that Annaz pegged ETA from the start and covered up evidence of Islamic participation in order to bolster his election chances, than I believe the government of France deliberately withheld prior information about the bombing to undermine thier political opposition in Spain. That I dismiss either of those theories has nothing to do with my great trust of politicians (I don't) or the fact that I don't believe Chirac is a slick bastard (I do), but because of the simple fact that all these elaborate conspiracies are high risk manuevers that don't work. Besides which, if you did want to form a conspiracy, there are always far simplier less high profile means of accomplishing the same purpose. If Annaz wanted to coverup Islamic involvement surely he would have done a better job than that, and surely anyone could have told him such a transparent 'cover up' job would be more damaging than helpful? The government of Spain immediately blamed ETA for no more sinister of a reason than the fact that ETA had been caught smuggling explosives into Madrid the week before, and Spainish intelligence agencies knew ETA was planning something. I was among the many people that dismissed the (by American standards) reflexive belief that Islamic terrorists were behind it by citing that fact, only to have within hours a series of confirmations of Islamic involvement come forward. The 'cover up' in Spain, such as it was, lasted no more than 24 hours. By mid-afternoon US time, the government had retracted its ETA claims and said that it was now investigating other possibilities. At worst, the conservative party is guilty of a knee jerk pinning this murder on the wrong set of murderous thugs before the evidence actually came in. But in light of the fight they were in before the 3/11 bombings, that's understandable. The next major terrorist attack on US soil is equally likely to be Islamists or homegrown leftists (ELF, Bush Haters, etc.) and might even be Timothy McVeigh style Survivalists, but I wouldn't accuse anyone of leaping to conclusions if thier first thought was Al Queda.

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appleciderus Celebrim, Densoflex, Panther. 3/16/2004 6:42:47 AM

Reading the comments here and on other threads, I am struck by the insight of 3 comments: Celebrim, IMO, is absolutely correct determining that AQ has removed Spain from the WoT. It is done! Densoflex is correct commenting that the Spanish government and the Spanish people are now ?in line?. Whether that?s a result of 50 years of Socialism, or a mutli-generational fatigue of terrorism, the truth is Socialistic Europe has turned its back on the War on Terror, and turned a ?blind eye? to the future consequences. A third comment by Panther that the same could happen here in November is chilling. Western Civilization will be greatly affected by the US Presidential election. Only the US will be able to continue the War on Terror, and only if Bush is reelected.

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