Don't be surprised...! Cause' this doesn't look good!

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Roman RE:Don't be surprised...! Cause' this doesn't look good! - Siddar 3/15/2004 1:58:16 AM

"Yes I think WoT will last 20 to 30 years so imagration ban will last along time. This would hopefully help muslims in europe intergrate in europe." Yes, I think it may be somewhat helpful to integration. "As for expelling existing populations im not for that" I am for expelling those who entered Europe illegaly, but not legal ones. "but I would be for deporting the trouble makers who refuse to execpt european values." Unfortunately, it is not a minority of Muslims in Europe that refuses to accept European values. It is the overwhelming majority of Muslim immigrants to Europe. They have this belief (which their Imams preach completely openly) that they can 'conquer' Europe through high birth rates and immigration and make it Muslim. They might just be right - basically, most of European Muslims live in isolated totally non-integrated communities and have fertility rates 3-4 times higher than native Europeans. On top of that there is immigration... it adds up. "I see no reason that a country cant get rid of people who arnt citzens and refuse to live within the limits of culture they have moved to." Again, see my comments above. "Europe has to many terrorist supporters and terrorist wannbes at the moment its time that those groups were rounded up and set home." I could not agree more!

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Green Dragon RE:Don't be surprised...! Cause' this doesn't look good! - Siddar 3/15/2004 4:10:15 AM

www.ceto.quantico.usmc.mil/papers/ WHEN_DEVILS_WALK_THE_EARTH.pdf I could not access/download this, presumably it is an access issue, is it available on open forum?.

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American Kafir Stop calling it Spain... 3/15/2004 6:12:01 AM

Spain is a kufr name. It's al-Andalous. The restoration of the Ummayyad Caliphate is at hand. Aznar was a fool not to consult with Al Qaeda when deciding his foreign policy. The Spanish people should now rise against this new kufr Socialist government that has vowed to continue fighting terrorism, because it will only bring more bombings. But all is not lost. Next time anyone wants Spain to rally behind their cause, all they have to do is blow up a train full of Spaniards. Hmmm.

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appleciderus Terrorism pays... 3/15/2004 6:34:50 AM

...3 or 4 bombs, a few hundred casualties, a new government. Diane Sawyer asked this morning if AQ would be encouraged by this demonstration that terrorism can overthrow a government? I would like to believe that thre were additional issues involved in the electorate turning out the government. But, even if there are other issues involved, Western media will presnt the election as a direct result of the terrorist attack, and the attack a direct result of Spanish support of US policy. Leftist's worldwide are rejoicing. AQ moves on.

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wildcat RE:Don't be surprised...! Cause' this doesn't look good! - Siddar 3/15/2004 8:27:12 AM

Probably I "special character" in the link I sent. Go to link click publications, then click papers. You should now see it.

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celebrim RE: Spain is lost. 3/15/2004 9:29:34 AM

Let's not kid ourselves here. By withdrawing unilaterally and unconditionally from Iraq and Afghanistan, Spain is recognizing Al Queda's military supremacy. The new Spainish government _MUST_ claim for obvious political reasons that it will be tough on terrorism (while withdrawing from 'misguided adventures' in Afghanistan and Iraq), but it also knows that if it does anything which upsets its new Al Queda masters that it is subject to a repeated attack which will in turn topple it as a government. Please, let's be realistic here. You can just forget the rhetoric. Any crackdown will be short lived. How many politicians do you know will go against the grain and risk thier own jobs? How vigorously do you expect them to shake down the Islamic community in Spain to sift out the militants? How vigorously do you expect them to crack down on the Islamic 'charities', radical Mosques, Islamic schools, and other institutions that might be flowing money into the pockets of terrorists? How vigorously do you expect Spain to now crack down on illegal Islamic immigration or pursue a policy of cultural integration, know that any major step in this direction could be the excuse for a terrorist cell being activated in Spain and knowing that many of your own political supporters are likely to side with the terrorists? Think about it. How can you prosecute the war on terror if you are terrified??? Spain has lost. Spain is lost. Lets not let wishy washy political correctness and a desire not to offend anyone get in the way of our understanding of what just happened. Terrorists toppled the government of Spain and now hold that government, and indeed all of Spain, hostage. Imagine for a moment that you are playing a sophisticated war game and you have been chosen (because you are noted for being an exceptionally devious lateral thinker) to play the role of the terrorists. What do you do next in Spain? The answer is, of course, you don't have to do anything. You've just defeated Spain. Spain is more friendly to you know than Libya! Spain is now colored 'Red' (or at least 'Pink') on the map. Any further pressure on it might cause it to crack, but its just as likely to provoke a resistance. So you leave it alone unless something happens that you need to punish, and you can wait confident that if that does happen a majority in Spain will blame themselves for thier lack of tolerance. Over the next few years you take this oppurtunity to to flood Spain with 'dawa' and your supporters to try to enhance your control of the democracy even further and strengthen your position to operate inside Europe. Remember the EU anyone? The ability to operate inside Spain is the ability to operate inside Europe. [EDIT] I just wrote a detailed paragraph explaining what I would do next if I was the terrorist player, including dates, targets and what not. That's what used to be here. I erased it before submitting the post because I don't want to tell the bad guys how to play, so you guys are just going to have to use your imagination. What would you do next?[/EDIT]

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celebrim RE: Roman 3/15/2004 9:58:23 AM

'Look at some of the statements by the newly elected government. They are all in the line of: "The priority of Spain must be the fight against terrorism."' Actions speak louder than words, but even the words don't read to me the same as they read to you. The new government is repeatedly refering to the fact that it will not tolerate "terrorism in all of its forms". That might sound like a bold statement to you, but to me it sounds like equivication. Why? Because its the exact same phrasing countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran use to condemn Israeli counter-terrorism operations. I hear the new Spainish government, not as you do emphacizing how it will fight against terrorism, but emphacizing rather that it will no longer be an obstacle to terrorists. I hear the new Spainish goverment saying, "We condemn the terrorist attacks in Madrid", but in the same breath saying "We condemn the terrorist attacks by the US on Iraq and Afghanistan.", "We condemn the terrorism US employs in detaining the prisoners in Cuba.", and implicitly, "We condemn Israeli terrorism in the 'occupied territories'". Actions speak louder than words. Would you bet against me? Do you really think the Socialists have changed thier stripes since 3/11? Look back at what they were saying before then. Look back at what thier supporters were doing before then? This is the same party whose supporters number women wearing fake suicide belts, people who dress up as Gitmo prisoners, and people comparing Bush to Hitler while exonerating Bin Ladin and wearing that checkered cloth to show thier support of Yassir Arafat.

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densoflex RE: Roman 3/15/2004 10:16:48 AM

Come on Friends! Don't loose your nerves! Spain isn't going to revert into a Caliphate as I read in some posts, neither will it appoint OBL as Minister of Foreign Affairs! At this point in time the next prime Minister said that he would withdraw the troops from Iraq on 30 June if nothing changes and without clear mandate from UN. He also confirmed his country's commitment to the war on terror. As far as I know he said nothing about Afghanistan but I can find no clue on a premature Spanish withdrawal. The fact is that Iraq war is extremely unpopular in Europe in general, most Europeans (in short)seeing no connection between Iraq and OBL and heavily suspecting the US to have a hidden agenda. Please remember that a few months ago more than 50% of the British public was deeming that GW Bush was a bigger threat to the world that OBL! And this proportion was even larger in other countries! So please refrain from Spanish bashing which may only harm furthermore Spain/USA relationship.

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celebrim RE: Bashing? 3/15/2004 10:38:48 AM

"Please remember that a few months ago more than 50% of the British public was deeming that GW Bush was a bigger threat to the world that OBL! And this proportion was even larger in other countries! So please refrain from Spanish bashing which may only harm furthermore Spain/USA relationship." Do you not see the irony in the above claims? I doupt you could find a better condemnation of European equivication and irrationality, than noting that most of them think Bush is more dangerous than Osama Bin Ladin. It's not bashing if you tell the truth. "Spain isn't going to revert into a Caliphate as I read in some posts, neither will it appoint OBL as Minister of Foreign Affairs!" Setting up a strawman arguement in order to knock it down does nothing to argue against what I said. I never said anything so obvious as Osama Bin Ladin being elevated to Caliph of Al-Andalous, but what has occured has occured. If you haven't found statements regarding pulling out of Afghanistan, you haven't been looking close enough. Not only have they already occured (an exact time table hasn't been specified yet), but the Socialist party ran on that platform. The Iraq timetable (June 30) is about as fast as they could reasonably pull the troops out, and its condition (UN control by that date) is one the US would never except. He basically said, "We are leaving as soon as possible." As I said before, the basic objection to my claims is 'we shouldn't say that because it might offend the Spainairds'. Well, tough. Let them be offended. They already by your own admission think that I and my country are more dangerous than Osama Bin Ladin and blame us for the train bombings. The strength of my nerve is not in question. It's the Spainairds that have lost thier nerve.

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celebrim RE: On finding who stands to profit. 3/15/2004 10:49:20 AM

After 9-11, French TV ran spots featuring a Columbo like detective that dismissed claims that Islamic radicals had attacked the World Trade center, and instead went around looking for 'who stood to gain' from the attacks. The obvious implication being that somehow (the already hated) Bush had organized an attack on the US to bolster a weak Presidency. Such conspiracy theories are quite popular in Europe and are tacitly supported via debates, hints, and inuendos by European state owned media outlets. What do you want to bet that French TV DOES NOT run similar spots nor even hint that perhaps the Socialists organized an attack (or knew of it before hand) on thier own country in order to bolster a weak election campaign. Surely the Socialist government had the most to gain from such an attack? Why aren't thier calls for an investigation of the government due to the seriousness of the charge? Please understand I'm not accusing the socialists of being complicit in the attack. I'm merely pointing out the hypocracy of the situation. The Socialists gained far more credibility from the 3/11 attack than Bush ever gained from the 9/11 attack yet no similar conspiracy theories are launched nor would they be treated with any credibility. Yet there is as much evidence for one as for the other.

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